discomikey Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 was reading a post on an unfortunate TD5 owner who got their car flooded. it came to me, that what if someone were to make a TD5 engine work without the ECU and all the modern electrical gubbins? surely it would be a good engine for off road use, especially in water. it has probably been thought of before but i liked the idea and wandered if it can be done? but could you get the power out of it that you can with a remap (around the 195BHP mark)? any thoughts/ideas very welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 This has been discussed before. it's worth doing a search. It short, there is no point even trying. You might as well just fit a mechanical engine, that already exists, and works just fine, rather than spend time, money and effort trying to make the td5 something it isn't. That said, engine electronics are not the major drama some people make them out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Doubt it would be possible as the injectors are electronic unit injectors [injection pump & injector in one unit] which means there is no injection pump as on a 200/300Tdi, the ECU tells the EUI's when to operate, same way as nearly all large HGV engine work & have done for millions of miles.plus the ECU also controls the emissions & without it wouldn't meet any current or proposed emissions regs, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 i know of a td5 that is running without electrics. im sorry i cannaot say anymore, but all i can say is that he is showing devon 4x4 it when its been properly destructed. so keep looking as it will be out in the air in a few months time dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 i know of a td5 that is running without electrics. Interesting! I was reading the thread and thinking that if you left the injectors as they are - and built something like an old fashioned distributor to control the injectors electrically - it should work. The throttle would be arranged to increase the 'dwel' - delivering more fuel in each injection cycle. It may also have to be tied to the advance as I'm guessing the injection starts at a variable time and stops when the cylinder pressure exceeds a threshold? OK, it's not devoid of electrickery - but it would have less than a petrol engine! It is a bit pointless as the ECU is going to be hard to beat for power and emissions - but in the future I'm sure we will see more hacks like this to remove the integration of the ECU with other systems. If the ECU is tied to the alarm and say seat-belt tensioners - it makes it more trouble to fit to a car with no or different seat belt tensioners. I kind of see Megasquirt as one of the first steps in this kind of hacking - we will undoubtedly see more in the future. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Removing integration / PITA security features I can understand, but converting back to mechanical operation as has been said loses all the benefits that precise control brings. There's a reason manufacturers bolt computers to things and it's not because it's easy. As has also been said, electrics are not the terrifying dark magic most LR owners consider them to be, if we can make a V8 run submerged with all those sparks flying about under the bonnet then a diesel should have no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 There are lots of VAG conversions where they convert TDi engines to a mechanical pump. Its usually for retro-fitting it into older cars where the addition of the ECU would be a headache etc though, and its simply converting an electronic rotary injector pump to a manual one. As said, water shouldnt be (and isnt) a problem in normal use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 hmm interesting, it probably is a waste of time, but what about using a bosch fuel pump on it and injectors etc, this would mean somehow incorporating the injection pump into the timing etc etc, electrics arent bad, but they do have their downfalls. like water, or could you just completely waterproof a TD5, would be hard because of the ECU. and it still probably wouldnt be able to go camel trophy style up to the rear view mirror in water and out the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 hmm interesting, it probably is a waste of time, but what about using a bosch fuel pump on it and injectors etc, this would mean somehow incorporating the injection pump into the timing etc etc, electrics arent bad, but they do have their downfalls. like water, or could you just completely waterproof a TD5, would be hard because of the ECU. and it still probably wouldnt be able to go camel trophy style up to the rear view mirror in water and out the other side. nowhere on a Td5 to fit a Tdi type injection pump as it's part of each electronic unit injector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 i see, what about waterproofing? i think the mechanical version is all talked out now without someone with a lot of money, no sense and a proffesional engine building company at their disposal. anyone? lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 wading depth is the same as any earlier 90/110 -- 0.5 metre or 20 inches, any deeper 7 you'll need to relocate the ECU to keep it out of any water to prevent future problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 yes it is, but the earlier ones were capable of going deeper just given a properly sealed intake system. now you need to do many things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I can see that in theory it would be possible but in practice the Td5 isn't a particularly outstanding engine to start with so a cut-down version doesn't seem to be worth a lot of effort when it would be easier to just change the engine for something different. Something like a 3 litre Toyota lump would surely be easier to fit and just as good. Having said that, some like to do things just because nobody else has It would seem that proper waterproofing is the easiest - after all they make outboard motors with full electronic engine management which live cheerfully in a horrible salty moist environment so it isn't rocket science - just a different level of sealing. The sensors might be another matter - Land Rover can't make a 300Tdi oil pressure sensor that can be submerged without going phut (I had about 9 on my old 90 in 2.5 years) so a submersible fully electronic engine "may need a little more effort"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 If bloke in his shed can knock up a megaquirt powered V8 that can run fully submerged, running a TD5 fully submerged shouldnt be an issue, you probably find the sensors are already well waterproofed from the factory. My only concern would be the thermal cycling affecting the exhaust manifold/turbocharger, but then it doesnt seem to bother TDI's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 i havent actually done anything to my td5 apart from relocated the ecu and made my own throttle thats now as windscreen hight. ive been through, and got stuck in water that see's my ass wet no problems, im more concerned about my compushift than i am with the engine. the xy switch's seem to suffer, anyone come up with a solution to that ? dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 A Manual Tranny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 A Manual Tranny? i half expected a extremely sensable answer i used to have a man fitted to it, but it wasnt really suited for the td5 and challenges, so i changed to auto and now love every thing about the autos's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Interesting question. I can see the argument of saying that ECU control will always be superior to mechanical. What would be good though, for ultimate survival, that if the electronics let you down, that you could do something ugly that allows you to continue no matter what. Like removing the plunger in a TDI if your electrics are flat. It is a big psychological back up to know what to do if all else fails, you always can drive home. (Well, unless you throw a bigend like I did = On a slightly different angle, there was a question recently about megasquirting a TD5, which would be a good option, at least you have a bit more of an understanding whats going on. Anyone tried this? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 its alright relocating the ECU, but if you roll in deep water, roof gets wet- ECU gets wet, bye bye engine for a few days, saying that the snorkle might get submerged hmmmmmmm. youd probably need a manual cut out switch aswell as the ignition key. and oud have to get rid of the immobiliser probably. extremely hard from what ive heard about them on Td5's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 and oud have to get rid of the immobiliser probably. extremely hard from what ive heard about them on Td5's This has already been covered on the forum. There are people modifying TD5 ECUs to stand alone without any of the other vehicle control units, immobilisers etc. Stick the ECU in a plastic box, use decent sealing on the loom, and the roof/water argument goes away. The snorkle issue won't, but then that has nothing to do with which engine is fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 yep. however you could make an extending flexi snorkle which has a very boyant float on the top of it, and it must be retractable. getting a bit silly now lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I was going to type a long reply to all this but I really can't be bothered. We built a fully electronic V8, and it has been driven roof-deep without missing a beat. It has been sat submerged for prolonged periods. It was rolled into a pond (yes, with the ECU in the roof) and sat there for four hours and it drove out under its own steam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I would agree with FF above. With the right sealing anything can be made to be good in a wet environment. I have dealt with pond pumps that have been running (at mains voltage) underwater for in some cases in excess of 20 years without a single issue. Get the sealing right and water won't cause you an issue, surely the same can be applied to engine electronics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 In theory yes but that is like saying surely after 24 years practice it would be possible to build a Defender that doesn't leak If you regularly end up upside down in deep water the main modification needed is to the connection between the seat and the steering wheel and maybe following that a career change to submarine commander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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