mmgemini Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 But how on earth do you use a fuel tank as a jacking base?! Maybe Mike thinks that 90's only have a removable cover over the battery box, and not over the drivers side too. I thought the drivers side cover was screwed down. Is it ? It's an old trick I learnt from my brother when he had h7 as a daily runner in 1965.j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I thought the drivers side cover was screwed down. Is it ? If it is, it's not exactly a tricky mod to make it removable. Hell, a defender seat base could make a jacking pad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I thought the drivers side cover was screwed down. Is it ? Mine isn't. I have an identical cover to the battery box. I never have seen the reason why I have a removable cover under the drivers seat? Is it just to aid access to the top of the fuel tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 I have used the hi-lift for pulling out a tree stump while attached to the Landy. Awkward tree stump, and I was dragging a chocked landy backwatds before we added a tree strop to the front bumper. I thought about the Tirfor which have used a couple of times, but I hate wire rope (Merchant Navy experience with them) and Tirfors are not neat to stow, whereas a front bumper winch stows the whole lot neatly out of the way, I can use synthetic rope and I need the second battery anyway. I have also (unfortunately) found that a winch bumper can do a fair bit of damage when impinging on the back of a white van in the wet, without receiving a visible scratch. My insurers have found my reporting of an accident and making no claim confusing. My driver's side cover, over the fuel tank, clips in the same way as the cover over the battery box on the passenger side. Thanks for the explanation Martin, as I missed the allusion. It sets me thinking. I have a bit of space under the seat on the driver's side, which currently is covered by the standard thin steel cover. I could fab up a replacement cover, in say 8mm mild steel, then: a) put in 4 central holes in to to bolt a hi-lift onto, to act as a hi-lift base like one of those red plastic jobs, b) put in 4 off-centre holes to bolt the hi-lift onto to make hi-lift + baseplate into a ground anchor, having about the same overall configuration as a purpose made anchor. This will need the joint between the hi-lift plate and the rack beefing up. It is currently just a non-stressed split pin, but in this configuration would have the full pull on the anchor stressing the pin in sheer. If I get some time tonight I will knock up a cad pic or two if this is not explanatory enough. All comments gratefully received. Regards Richard Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cieranc Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 (with some kind of baseplate probably fab'd steel) Steel foot off a high-lift against a steel baseplate will slide like hell, some thick marine ply would be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 a front bumper winch stows the whole lot neatly out of the way, I can use synthetic rope and I need the second battery anyway. True, but you can't pull your own engine or gearbox out with a bumper mounted winch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Speaking as one who HAS a front mounted winch & its intended use is the same as Richards, when I ordered my winch from First Four...the very first product he recommended to me was a hand held winch. His line of reasoning was...if you have a winch mounted at the front, if you do get stuck, you can only pull yourself further INTO the cause of you getting stuck and you cant recover youself backwards. I still stand by the fact that an expedition vehicle is not used in the same way as other Land Rovers, in that you will almost treat it with kid gloves & really aim NOT to get stuck in the first place, even at the expense of taking a lengthy detour if necessary. Over the course of a year long trip, what are a few hours detour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 The hi-lift pics I mentioned earlier are: a) hi-lift used for normal jacking with steel "under-driver's-seat" baseplate, bolts shown exploded for clarity: b) hi-lift used as a ground anchor in the following configuration, there needs to be some kind of wedge between hi-lift and baseplate to give a dig in angle , maybe a shackle through the lifting bar of the hi-lift and the baseplate, something like this: : (with winch rope shackled to top of hi-lift rack not shown for clarity) Those of you who have used these things in anger, does this idea have anything going for it ? Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 The second drawing would be better, but if you bend the hilift then it would be no good. If you look at the pin and plate type, the pins have other uses and they are easy to store. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 On the winch question, my expedition will definitely be two vehicles a 90 and a 110. So, my reasoning goes, if the one in front gets stuck, the one behind can pull him out backwards with his front mounted winch. If the one behind gets stuck, since the front one got through the route must be do-able, so with a tow rope, or his front winch we ought to be able to get the rear one through too. I have given some thought to how you could pull yourself out backwards with a front mounted winch on your own, and read of someone doing it by leading the rope under the chassis to a tree to get out of a snowdrift. But I cannot see that working in mud. Still I have not been on the course yet; I daresay there are winching mysteries to be revealed then. Finally, I fully sign up to the view that the whole plan is not getting stuck in the first place, which is exactly what I was taught at Whitecliff and all the drivers will have done the Whitecliff 1 day course before we leave. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 The second drawing would be better, but if you bend the hilift then it would be no good. If you look at the pin and plate type, the pins have other uses and they are easy to store. Paul Paul, Thanks. I had a look at the army pin/plate ones at anchor supplies, but they were very big and heavy for what I hope will never be used, and need a sledgehammer to get the pins in. You are right about bending the hi-lift. The idea is to use the hi-lift rack in tension so that should not bend. But there is a good possibility of bending the base/baseplate if I don't get it right. I need to play with this idea for real to get an idea of what happens in real ground, so some links to representative videos would be good but searching for anchor in youtube brings up loads of orange coloured american TV presenters making arses of themselves. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Thank you to everyone who recommended an X-Anchor - but I probably agree that it's not ideal. They have been used in anger in just about every type of soil plus snow and sand - but they are fairly big and hard to stow. The size and shape were the result of an evolutionary process looking for something which worked well in as many situations as possible while being light weight. Have you considered a Pull-Pall? They are available in different sizes, fold and work almost as well as an X-Anchor - though they are fairly heavy. In testing the X-Anchor, we used a Pull-Pall and a Devon4x4 anchor as benchmarks for how well it needed to work in different soil types. The HiLift anchor is an interesting design - but won't work in that form. The angle of the blade needs to be much shallower. Also, surprisingly perhaps there will a strong bending moment on the ladder. It's certainly not just in tension as you might think! If you want to test it - use Talcum powder and make it about 1/8th scale. The powder has a smaller particle size than soil and seems to be a decent scale model. Flour is roughly the same at about 1/6 to 1/7th scale - much easier to buy in large quantities! Unfortunately, you soon find out that there is a fairly narrow envelope of sizes and angles that work reasonably. In general also, the longer the distance from the blade to the winch rope attachment the better it works regardless of the blade angle. I do have a novel folding design in my notebook - just haven't had the time to develop it into something decent. It should come in at 12kg and fold to little bigger than the current X-Anchor blade. Good luck whatever you go for. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I wouldnt get a groundanchor for occasional use, just bury your spare wheel. Overlanders usually have time on their hands, so just make use of what you have. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 True, but you can't pull your own engine or gearbox out with a bumper mounted winch. When a mate blew his clutch in the middle of the desert, we did use a winch to pull the gearbox - attached the hook to a Landcruiser bumper, laid a sandladder under the gearbox with a couple of jacks supporting, undid all the bolts, then used the winch to slowly drag the car forwards leaving the gearbox in situ, didn't bother taking the 'box out just to change the clutch but could have. Would have been just as possible with a hi-lift - maybe a tow but that might have been too aggresive. Amazing what you can do when you need to get home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&S Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 On the winch question, my expedition will definitely be two vehicles a 90 and a 110. So, my reasoning goes, if the one in front gets stuck, the one behind can pull him out backwards with his front mounted winch. If the one behind gets stuck, since the front one got through the route must be do-able, so with a tow rope, or his front winch we ought to be able to get the rear one through too. Regards Richard So why do you need a ground anchor again? A 90 or a 110 both make a pretty good anchor! A tow rope will see you out of most situations if you have another vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 There are lots of good reasons on here why a cautious approach with two vehicles with winches mean that a ground anchor is not necessary,and I am convinced that I have not yet seen a design for a purpose made anchor which would be worth the weight and/or space (unless Simon get's his notebook idea made). However if I am taking a hi-lift (already fitted to rear wheel carrier), and make a steel hi-lift baseplate (to be fitted under the driver's seat) anyway , and I can devise a ground anchor from these with some kind of small fab'd fitting, and a shackle or two, then in a way I get a ground anchor almost for free. I thought about using the hi-lift rack as a plate and add some pins to make a pin and plate type anchor, but I would need to stow pins and hammer, and I think a couple of uses would probably knacker the hi-lift. So the spade type designs look more promising. The pull-pal looks pretty simple and just beefy, but I suspect there are some very clever things going on with how the tension and bending stresses are handled in x-eng longbow design which need looking at carefully, if my design (lash-up) is going to work at all. Don't hold your breath, but if I make anything which works, I'll post it in the Fabrication Section. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 As a back of a beer mat idea, how about something along the lines of a snow anchor used for ice climbing? like this probably need to be scaled up a bit Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 Mike, Thanks, that's very interesting as the attachments to the blade are flexible wire rope, whereas all the blade type 4x4 attachments are rigid bars. It's also interesting that the blade has holes in it. I assume if they are not too large the anchoring effect is not reduced much, but the weight is. I really do need to finish off my Landy's water system and then play around with an anchor design. Thanks very much for that contributioin. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Not that light but a mil tube and plate anchor need not take up much space false plywood floor for easy pin stowage and the tube lives along the left side though could go anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Pins can also be used for holding up a BBQ or Wash basin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I wouldnt get a groundanchor for occasional use, just bury your spare wheel. Overlanders usually have time on their hands, so just make use of what you have. Daan reminds me of a story I heard or read about a guy travelling solo in Africa. As I remember it... "He broke a halfshaft while in the middle of a reserve. So after pulling the shaft out he was down to 2 wheel drive. Every thing was fine until he came across a steep climb with loose top surface. Try as he might, he couldn't make it to the top. Fortunately there were a few handy trees, so he rigged up the winch and with a couple of pulls he was up. He re-spooled the rope and jumped back in. He drove about 10-15ft past an outcrop to see a whole pride of lions to his right. They didn't seem too bothered by his presence, but he was glad he didn't hang around any longer getting up that hill!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 No worries Continuing the back of the envelope thinking, it must be possible to modify a sand ladder with a diagonal cut so the 2 halves could be rotated into a larger version of the snow anchor, you'd still have to get the spade out to bury it but it would be quicker than the spare wheel trick something like this... I'm sure Si can make it work, if so I'd like one please Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Mike, Si and I have been throwing some ideas back and forth offline. The problem he has identified is not so much in making the blade as the means by which it is attached to the winch cable to make it effective. As of now we are not clear whether the use of the hi-lift as a bar between blade and winch cable has mileage in it or not. It might work if you don't mind knackering the hi-lift. One or other of us will post if we come up with anything helpful. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnut Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5207 This link may be of some interest to you all. Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Thanks wingnut. As so often, and certainly with me so far, lots of ideas but no video of the action. They seem to be very cautios about keeping the hi-lift mechanism out of the ground, to keep it clean. This is not an angle I had considered. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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