Roll Cage Question

[zim]

Just a quick question regarding the rules for challenging. (Most organisations seem to have very similar rules, but essentially for XLC (feels strange not saying HW )).

The B-pillar hoop - does it have to be exactly vertical ? Or can it 'lean' ?

Below is a drawing as an example, showing a normal upright hoop on the left compared to what i'm asking about on the right (maybe a touch exaggerated, but you get the idea) :

I do realise for next year the rear stays must go to the chassis.

Cheers

Gordon

[Holyzeus]

If it was leaning would it not reduce it's effectiveness/safety?

[Steve Hiatt]

It can lean, by how much I don't know. It leans in most proto comp safari racers.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=14161

It has be be vertcial, or damned close to if you wnat it MSA / ARC standard

Nige

[zim]

Disregarding the rear stays etc, would this hoop pass ?

Example :

[najw]

No the rear backstays must be straight. Unless you are going for MSA spaceframe certification for mass production, which wouldn't be cheap.

[Steve Hiatt]

You would need some bracing within the hoop.

I'm in the process of upgrading my MSA spec spaceframe, working to FIA regs which are a little more stringent than the MSA ones. Here's a link here

I note that it says the main hoop should be vertical or near vertical. I would say the one in your picture is too swept back to be called near vertical.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yup

I would agree. MSA ARC FIA etc all have roll cage designs around a variation of themes, many share similar pratises / requirements, and the main hoop is very much that - the MAIN part of the cage system. I belive the requirement is vertcial or a close to as to not be something that can be argued - the one in the pic above whilst lovely work can't in anyones sane imagination be deemed as upright- hence I think would be an issue.

Again from my memory the reson for this is impact strength, Main hoops leaning back (and this has been an issue as there is a minimum distance requirement from drivers head / helmet etc) mean on impact is is already "Bending" away from upright, similarly same with rear stays, bends in them massively reduce the strength, as the bends have already started.

Sadly I have seen some beautufully designed tubework fall foul of rules and regs, but at the end of the day those rulkes and regs are very limited in how far it could be tweaked

HTH

Nige

[MrHT]

Am I right in thinking that the front hoop has to be one piece as well?

Where as yours is just suports nota hoop

[robhybrid]

Am I right in thinking that the front hoop has to be one piece as well?

Where as yours is just suports nota hoop

I would be interested to know the answer to this one.

I think the rear hoop and stays are considered the main roll over protection and everything else is considered to be extra so not as critical, but I am interested to see a reply from someone who knows.....

I intend on starting to weld my buggy in the near future.

my rear stays are straight, it is just that the chassis comes up a long way to meet them.

my rear hoop leans back somewhat and then has extra bracing.

I don't intend on having a front hoop but 2 door aperture type hoops with a connecting bar at the top and middle.

I am entering a minefield I know, I have visions of numerous modifications before I am totally happy.

[MrHT]

Try this

seems the msa have published all the blue book on line and you dont' have to sign in for it either

Look for "2011 msa year book"

[will_warne]

I would be interested to know the answer to this one.

I think the rear hoop and stays are considered the main roll over protection and everything else is considered to be extra so not as critical, but I am interested to see a reply from someone who knows.....

I intend on starting to weld my buggy in the near future.

my rear stays are straight, it is just that the chassis comes up a long way to meet them.

my rear hoop leans back somewhat and then has extra bracing.

I don't intend on having a front hoop but 2 door aperture type hoops with a connecting bar at the top and middle.

I am entering a minefield I know, I have visions of numerous modifications before I am totally happy.

Rob, have a read of the blue book - you don't need a single peice front hoop but you will then need one peice A pillar / roof bars. Have a look at my build thread - this has been done to comply with MSA regs......

[andyb]

you don't need a single peice front hoop but you will then need one peice A pillar / roof bars.

This is the way that the internal Safeft Devices cage in my Discovery is done. There are bars that run around the top of the doors and down the A-pillar, then a bar across the top of the screen is bolted in afterwards.

[forkrentfitter]

not wishing to upset will any further,make sure you check the 2011 blue book,the msa have changed a lot of spec due to them lagging behind fia regs for a number of years,the fia spec will have to be adopted for national as well as international specs.getting a home built cage past an msa scrutineer next year will not be easey,the last i heard was msa log books are looming for challenge vehicles too.

[bishbosh]

I think the verticality of the B hoop is to ensure it is quite close to the driver's head as this is the one thing it really needs to protect. IIRC there is something in the book of lies requiring it to be a certain maximum distance from the driver's head.

[redrodant]

I think the verticality of the B hoop is to ensure it is quite close to the driver's head as this is the one thing it really needs to protect. IIRC there is something in the book of lies requiring it to be a certain maximum distance from the driver's head.

Im sure there is a minimum / maximum angle at wich the rear stays meet the chassis, and the top of the main hoop, I think a MSA scrutaneer "years ago" told me the main hoop can be 10 degrease off vertical, bit only leaning backwards only!

[nik 1]

The log book thing is not a msa thing but a awdc only thing ,

(This is how i under stand it at the moment)

This is from the 2011 blue book or year book

Definitions

1.1.1. Safety Cage. A structural framework designed to

prevent serious bodyshell deformation in the case of a

collision or a car turning over.

1.1.2. Rollbar. Structural frame or hoop and mounting

points. Rollcage. Structural framework made up of a

main rollbar and a front rollbar (or two lateral rollbars),

their connecting members, one diagonal member,

backstays and mounting points (see drawings K5 and

K6).

1.1.3. Main Rollbar. Structure consisting of a nearvertical

frame or hoop located across the vehicle just

behind the front seats.

1.1.4. Front Rollbar. Similar to main rollbar but its

shape follows the windscreen pillars and top screen

edge.

As you see it states ( a nearvertical

frame or hoop)hope this helps .

Merry Christmas all nik

[zim]

I've only got my 2010 year book with me here... Is there a link to a website showing the changes between that and the 2011 version ?

Cheers

Gordon

[MrHT]

Try this

seems the msa have published all the blue book on line and you dont' have to sign in for it either

Look for "2011 msa year book"

This is the 2011 yearbook and it's all online

[LandyManLuke]

This is the 2011 yearbook and it's all online

The Index page is here

[Steve Hiatt]

The updated regs are in red text.

And the racer pictured at the front of the Cross Country regs has an inclined main hoop

[nicksmelly]

I think you'll find that that racer was built way before the MSA even thought about inclined hoops for racers. Something like Grandfather rights, or in your case, Great Grandfather rights?

It was way ahead of it's time. Well, most AWDC racers had only just progressed to using a hoop at all.

AWDC promotional video - 1999

The updated regs are in red text.

And the racer pictured at the front of the Cross Country regs has an inclined main hoop

[zim]

This is the 2011 yearbook and it's all online

Cheers. There are no red parts in that, so does that mean it's all the same as the 2010 book ? (to save me printing it out).

G

[forkrentfitter]

i have been talking to an msa scrutineer today,according to him grandfather rights are going to disapear,basically if the scrutineer don,t like it you want be able to play,unless the cage meets all the new criteria and drawings,apparantly this has come from a meeting after the 2011 yearbooks were printed.as i said in an earlier post the msa have lagged behind fia amendments and they have been instructed to comply or else.

[simonr]

I was speaking to a chap this morning who claimed to be part of the MSA, who said there are likely to be a lot of rule changes in the next couple of years to bring MSA and FIA in to line with one another. He similarly said grandfather rights were going to go and that any vehicle must comply fully with the latest set of rules. He suggested that before embarking on any major build, it might be worth waiting for the dust to settle rather than build to one set of rules to have it disqualified as soon as it's finished.

This is pretty much what has happened to my truck. I finished it this year only to find that in 2011, it cannot comply with the regs (it does not have two chassis rails, which means the stays on the main hoop disobey the minimum separation / angle) Best suggestion so far is to cut off the space frame, restore the chassis to a traditional ladder frame and build a compliant cage - in other words start again. When I started the build 3 years ago, it complied with AWDC regs - and nobody had mentioned the MSA.

I have to say that I'm worried that by the time it's replacement is ready to roll, it will also be illegal.

I've decided that the safest option is to build something entirely road legal so that even if the MSA don't like it, at least there are other events it can take part in. It does rather limit how 'trick' it can be - but perhaps that's a good thing!

Si