Insurance / sorn

[steve b]

Just heard something on the radio about the law changing with vehicles that are not 'taxed' and stored off road needing to be declared also for un-insured..

The piece on the radio was not that clear about how to comply with this and indeed what it applies to

Like many on here I have one or two spare Land Rovers which are sorn'd or scrapped and being pulled apart slowly , so , anyone got any more info on this doubtless indispensible new legislation, I did catch the words ' ..its for our benefit ' so I do feel duely re-assured...

cheers

Steveb

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Yes, I've heard about this too. Very poorly though out and totally unenforceable.

From what I understand, if you have a vehicle on a SORN to which the public have access, it must be insured, regardless of it's condition.

I don't quite understand how this is possible, as I (and I'm sure most people can) can poke loads of holes in it.

I might have it backwards though.

[steve b]

So covered by the public liability insurance for the garden/outside of the property?

....or does each one need to be identified on some piece of paper?

thank goodness we have the Govt. to keep us safe

Steveb

[rtbarton]

What the program (Radio 4 "You and Yours" 10/1/2011) said was that if a vehicle was not SORNd it would have to be insured.

They quoted the case of a man and wife who had a car each, her car wasn't insured (presumably because she didn't use it) but he could drive it on his insurance.

The programme asked the government for clarification and they said from when the new legislation comes in both cars would have to be insured. They are shifting the emphasis from people being insured to cars being insured.

The idea is to stop people driving uninsured cars. But it won't make any difference to that because someone who is willing to break the law will do so anyway, and it could lead to an increase in vehicle cloning.

The people it will catch are those like the couple above who will have to pay twice as much insurance in future.

But they will still have to match drivers to their cars, otherwise a careful driver and a rookie in the same car will pay the same premium.

The government rep. on the programme said that it would make it easier for cameras to catch uninsured cars.

[nickwilliams]

....or does each one need to be identified on some piece of paper?

It's because of the complete horlicks that is Continuous Insurance, so the cover will need to be a motor policy, not just a household insurance.

There was an article which sheds a bit more light on this in the Telegraph at the weekend.

Nick.

[crclifford]

Reading the Telegraph article if the vehicle is SORNd then you don't have to insure it.

The onus will be on those individuals with a car that is taxed and not insured sitting there.

So as i see it if you plan to do a month long refurb/rebuild and don't SORN it but let the insurance run out, they could take it after giving you a warning letter, but if you SORN it then it isn't a problem.

Chris

[reads90]

I read about it over here in Aus

What they want to do is you have to have insurance on any car you own that is not SORN

So if you have a car in your back yard that is not SORN and not insured then you can get up to 8 points and £100 to £1000 fine

The idea is that 1 million cars on UK roads are not insured and the police and government want to crack down on this. But at the moment they have to catch them on the road driving the car. With this new law thy car turn up to your house and fine you there and then with out you even being in the car

As said was in the Sunday paper here in Australia so goods know how you lot don't know about it. They said it was starting in march

[rtbarton]

I read about it over here in Aus

What they want to do is you have to have insurance on any car you own that is not SORN

So if you have a car in your back yard that is not SORN and not insured then you can get up to 8 points and £100 to £1000 fine

The idea is that 1 million cars on UK roads are not insured and the police and government want to crack down on this. But at the moment they have to catch them on the road driving the car. With this new law thy car turn up to your house and fine you there and then with out you even being in the car

As said was in the Sunday paper here in Australia so goods know how you lot don't know about it. They said it was starting in march

That's it in a nutshell. It won't affect most people because most inurance policies state the car registration number.

[nickwilliams]

If one accepts that continuous insurance is an acceptable approach to dealing with the problem of uninsured drivers, then the proposed change actually makes sense.

Basically, what they are proposing to do is to extend the logic of SORN to insurance. At the moment, SORN only deals with car tax - a car either has to be SORN'd or it must have a current tax disc. The new proposal extends that by saying that the vehicle must either be SORN'd or it must be taxed AND insured.

Looking into my crystal ball, I can see a time coming when road tax is included as a statutory part of a car's insurance policy. When that happens the insurance companies will collect it on the government's behalf and all the bureaucracy associated with tax discs (and, of course the associated expense funded by the tax payer) will be done away with.

Nick.

[rtbarton]

........

Looking into my crystal ball, I can see a time coming when road tax is included as a statutory part of a car's insurance policy. When that happens the insurance companies will collect it on the government's behalf and all the bureaucracy associated with tax discs (and, of course the associated expense funded by the tax payer) will be done away with.

Nick.

Some countries do that the other way round, 3rd party insurance comes with the tax disc.

[steve b]

So where do the 2 Unimog 404's I've got fit in ?

Imported by the guy I bought them off back in the late 80's , never registered and I bought them 3 yrs ago?

And the offroad bobbed 2dr RRC thats long since been scrapped as a vehicle but still looks like a RRC? trailered to Pay and break days?

I thought sorn was brought in to stop untaxed vehicle use....

bewildered of the UK

Steveb

[nickwilliams]

Some countries do that the other way round, 3rd party insurance comes with the tax disc.

Which is, of course, the sensible way to do it.

Note that I did not say that my crystal ball indicated that the future would be any cheaper for the law abiding motorist.

Nick.

[wack61]

So if you have a car in your back yard that is not SORN and not insured then you can get up to 8 points and £100 to £1000 fine

Kerching yet another fine we have to be aware of, this will do very little to stop uninsured drivers, a husband that drives a car registered in his wifes name is insured but some scumbag like Mohammed Ibrahim

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/16/iraqi-killed-girl-remain-uk

who drives while banned multiple times won't be affected because he doesn't care about the consequences of his actions.

[rtbarton]

........

Note that I did not say that my crystal ball indicated that the future would be any cheaper for the law abiding motorist.

Nick.

But I'm sure it will, the admin costs saved by the Government will be passed on to the motorist and the insurance companies will do the extra work for free out of the kindness of their hearts.

[nickwilliams]

So where do the 2 Unimog 404's I've got fit in ?

Imported by the guy I bought them off back in the late 80's , never registered and I bought them 3 yrs ago?

And the offroad bobbed 2dr RRC thats long since been scrapped as a vehicle but still looks like a RRC? trailered to Pay and break days?

I thought sorn was brought in to stop untaxed vehicle use....

bewildered of the UK

Steveb

If your vehicle has never been on the DVLA database then they can't send you a fine for not SORNing it because they don't know about it. I don't know if you are under any statutory duty to tell them about it - and from what I have heard I doubt that DVLA will give you a legally accurate or honest answer to that.

Nick.

[dazwell24]

So where do the 2 Unimog 404's I've got fit in ?

Imported by the guy I bought them off back in the late 80's , never registered and I bought them 3 yrs ago?

And the offroad bobbed 2dr RRC thats long since been scrapped as a vehicle but still looks like a RRC? trailered to Pay and break days?

I thought sorn was brought in to stop untaxed vehicle use....

bewildered of the UK

Steveb

play the government at there own game and register them on limited use agricultural use then they have to give u free tax disc whilst your not needing specific road insurance just a cheap public liability insurance and ur allowed to travel within a certain radius of ur home one way round it

[axlechorus]

Personnally I would keep stum about those 2 vehicles espically if they are not in a running condition anyway. As for your vehicle to send to P&P days if it is trailered and SORN then nothing will change that I can see. You can still take it from your drive to the site and back on the trailer and you would still be commiting an offence if you drove it on the road at any point but now it will be a double of no tax and no insurance.

I think the key here is if in doubt then SORN the car, its not a complex system and will avoid plod turning up with a ticket when the cars in a highly road worthy garage rebuild state

All the best

Ryck

[nickwilliams]

play the government at there own game and register them on limited use agricultural use then they have to give u free tax disc whilst your not needing specific road insurance just a cheap public liability insurance and ur allowed to travel within a certain radius of ur home one way round it

Some very bad advice there, I'm afraid. Suggest you read this thread.

Nick.

[Range Rover Blues]

It might vary on a case by case basis but I was advised by my broker that I can only drive another car on my insurance if that car carries it's own policy. Also if you drive that car on your policy and leave it in public your "drive any car" cover ceases when you get out of it, although the owner's policy might also not cover it for theft leaving it insured at the legal minimum cover.

Insurance is not my favourite thing anyway, the deck is stacked against us. I wonder how much of this new legislation is driven by the insurance industry and how much of it is allowing the gov't (god bless 'em) better access to the deepest recesses of my pockets.

As said it will not stop the criminals at all, more likley to increase the instance of cloning etc and when the fines cost less than a second hand car it will not stop, unfortunately I know of lads who have had cars impounded and just gone and bought another.

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm sorry, I can't see what all the fuss is about - if you read the facts (ie the bits the DVLA has actually said rather than what people on the internet think they said) it is an attempt to reduce the number of uninsured cars ON THE ROAD thus saving motorists and taxpayers vast piles of cash that are currently spent mopping up after uninsured drivers.

More info here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_186696?CID=Continuous_Insurance&PLA=DM&CRE=Furl

Key phrase:

From early 2011 a new scheme is being introduced to make sure that all vehicles stay insured or a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is made.

So it looks like they are just comparing the insurance records with the SORN records, and any car which is NOT SORN (I.E. you haven't told them it's off the road) is therefore assumed to be on the road and therefore must have tax. Stuff that's not on their computer at all rather obviously they won't know about and therefore won't care about, especially if it's a parts donor in a hedge. It's also worth remembering that SORN is still free, and easy to do online.

So - perhaps people can stop getting all Daily Mail about it and maybe see the positive side - insurance premiums may actually drop and your chances of being in an accident with an uninsured idiot may also be drastically reduced.

[reads90]

Some countries do that the other way round, 3rd party insurance comes with the tax disc.

Same as Australia where car rego ( road tax) has third party insurance included. So this make it that if you have rego you are insured. And of course anyone can drive anyone else's car and be insured

[steve b]

I'm sorry, I can't see what all the fuss is about - if you read the facts (ie the bits the DVLA has actually said rather than what people on the internet think they said) it is an attempt to reduce the number of uninsured cars ON THE ROAD thus saving motorists and taxpayers vast piles of cash that are currently spent mopping up after uninsured drivers.

More info here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_186696?CID=Continuous_Insurance&PLA=DM&CRE=Furl

Key phrase:

So it looks like they are just comparing the insurance records with the SORN records, and any car which is NOT SORN (I.E. you haven't told them it's off the road) is therefore assumed to be on the road and therefore must have tax. Stuff that's not on their computer at all rather obviously they won't know about and therefore won't care about, especially if it's a parts donor in a hedge. It's also worth remembering that SORN is still free, and easy to do online.

So - perhaps people can stop getting all Daily Mail about it and maybe see the positive side - insurance premiums may actually drop and your chances of being in an accident with an uninsured idiot may also be drastically reduced.

thanks for all the replies and links , any vehicles I own that are not taxed are indeed sorned and stored on private land , the point of this post was to clarify the news byte I heard on Radio2's business news which seemed to imply another form of notification would be required to register uninsured status when sorned.

..nothing to do then , however if my insurance premiums drop I may hold a party to celebrate..

cheers

Steveb

[Bowie69]

if my insurance premiums drop I may hold a party to celebrate..

Yeah, and the pigs we keep are growing wings too!

[rtbarton]

It might vary on a case by case basis but I was advised by my broker that I can only drive another car on my insurance if that car carries it's own policy

Yes it does vary, my Saga policy allows me to drive other cars and it doesn't mention that they need to have a current policy. I must have the driver's permission except in a motoring emergency, and only then for an absolute minimum distance, like moving a car from the carriageway to a laybay &c.

[Daan]

I thought the rule was that you can drive any other insured car, but you are covered 3rd party only. So the case of the man who drives his wives car uninsured makes no sense to me. In any case, whenever you see a cop program, and an inunsured driver gets pulled, he never has it taxed or moted either, so quite what is achieved here is not clear to me.