Eightpot Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Never had this happen before - Just need to whip an old n/a engine out of a defender so I can change the rear oil seal. It's a low mileage early defender, very 'original' so was expecting a bit of a fight, but didn't expect it to win! So all pipes/cables etc removed, all bellhousing nuts removed, hoist on - big heave - nothing 30 mins of effort later and still no sign of the joint splitting. Plusgas round the joint, blowtorch all round the bellhousing to release any sealant. Finally tap in some screwdrivers to crack the joint, and finally it opens up. More heaving on the crane and nothing. So more wedges driven in round the bellhousing, which is now split open all round by 10mm - but still won't separate! If the wedges are removed, the joint snaps closed and takes force to get Iit open again Wondering if the clutch is somehow stuck on the gearbox input shaft? Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 That sounds like it, could the splines have worn and be holding it? Try turning the engine a little from the crank pulley perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 Just tried that but it hasn't helped. Have tried pedaling the clutch and the engine moves forward, and also back when the clutch is released. My arms are killing : 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 It's probably the splines jammed in the friction plate then. I'd say it's going to be new clutch time as by the time you get it apart you will no doubt have ripped the centre out of the friction plate..... probably not doing a great deal of good to the pressure plate either. Gradually wedging the gap larger is about the only idea I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 I think it will be new bellhousing time as well, its already visibly flexing where it's being wedged. Odd though, it's only done 80k, I think it may still be on its original clutch as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I wonder if it will affect the bearing on the gearbox input shaft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash.Witty Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 If you have the engine at a slight angle it will jam up, lift the engine so the crane is holding it, then jack the bell housing up so that it is perfectly inline with the engine and it may free up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 What about spraying diesel in through the gap ? Lots of it. It may just soak through and help release it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 I'm thinking that as this is very likely the original clutch from 1988, and also the 90 has been laid up for a couple of years, it's looking likely the clutch centre has probably stuck fast on the splines. I can only get a few mm movement, and it's under very strong spring pressure. The engine moves forward easily if I press the clutch pedal, so no problem with the angle etc, just wish the clutch would push it another inch.. Don't think I can get it forward enough to get oil in, I might drill a small hole so I can stick a straw through. meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 How about pressing the clutch and then wedging the gap, let the clutch up and leave it that way overnight. Wedge it in multiple places to reduce distortion of the bell housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 And maybe keep turning the engine over while it's all under pressure..... using the starter might making it easier, just don't overheat the starter. EDIT: Goes without saying gearbox in neutral as with the engine and gearbox wedged apart it will be trying to spin the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Day 3! And still the engine refuses to relinquish it's grip on the gearbox. I've given up trying to prise them apart, have now chocked the wheels up and fixed a ratchet strap to another car. Tightened it up as hard as I can, whilst levering the joint with crow bars. It still won't budge. I can feel a silly idea coming on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Now out of silly ideas - even a snatch recovery has failed to budge it. I think I'm actually going to have to smash the bellhousing completely off and remove the clutch : ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Did you try soaking it in diesel ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymorris Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Crikey ! What about taking the engine out with gearbox still on ? Maybe you'd be able to wiggle/ jiggle it a bit better ? Good luck ! Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 I've drilled a big hole in the bellhousing now and have been able to get some release oil squirted on the splines. I still don't get what the problem is though. I can see the release bearing and it spins freely. I can see the clutch cover - when I lever the engine forward, I can see the clutch unit move along the splines, clutch cover fingers arent flexing or touching anything. But I can only lever the engine forward maybe 12mm, if I let go it snaps back shut like a clam. All thats got to happen is the gearbox input shaft withdraw a few inches through the centre of the clutch - what the dickens has happened to the end of the shaft that it won't pull through even when helped along by a violent tug from a 110? Time to give up for today. I hear the call of the golden arches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Can you keep the release bearing in the disengage position, then release the clutch pedal. the system will compensate with more fluid, then press pedal again, as hard as you can. Maybe have a distance piece between release bearing and fork? Basically suggesting to use the clutch mechanism to press the clutch of the splines. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Rotation is better than straight pull for releasing stuff like this. Would it be possible to pull and establish the gap, jam it open, apply the handbrake then give the starter some power.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 is it possible to unbolt the clutch cover from flywheel,?? then the engine should split & leave the clutch plate exposed for a brutal removal from gearbox shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 Yep, I already tried using the clutch pedal do the work by separating the box as much as possible, press clutch in, top up fluid and repeat but it doesn't extend anywhere near enough - might see if I can wedge something between the release bearing and cover plate next. I've tried separating the engine/box and spinning the starter too - still nothing. One plan is to smash through the bellhousing so I can get to the clutch cover bolts - I'm hoping that leaving everything overnight with penetrating oil and sticking a blow torch through the hole i madel might help ease things off before I have to start swinging the club hammer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Will be interested to see what was the cause when you get it apart. Good luck with the brute force Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballcock Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Could you not cut a small neat hole that will allow access to one clutch cover bolt, slacken that and then rotate till another until all are freed. Then make a rubber cover to fill the hole afterwards? Another thought, although you've tried it on the starter has this been with it in gear an the clutch depressed as if it's not the splines holding it the only other would be the spigot bush and this should free with spinning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 May very well be the spigot bush! I have had this exact same experience, although in this case it was quite obvious that it was indeed the spigot bush. It was obvious because it was a V8 out of an auto SD1, now coupled to an LT95. What nobody considered when putting them together was that on the auto there was a steel bush mounted because it doesn't rotate so it doesn't have to be bronze. So after a little while the clutch didn't seem to disengage properly, was the spigot bush binding! Was a right nightmare to take apart, we ended sawing a big round hole in the bottom of the bellhousing with a holesaw. To allow us to unbolt the pressure plate. Then with it all on the floor we could take the grinder to the now totally seized steel bush, slice it in half and knock it off with a hammer. What probably has happened to you is that you have got the bush out of the crank with all your prying, but it wont go through the friction plate splines.. Therefore declutching makes it move. Why then a bronze bushing should seize on steel, is a mystery to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepé le Pew Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 if it's not the splines holding it the only other would be the spigot bush and this should free with spinning. If the spigot bush and primairy pinion are a good thight fit as they should be and they are covered in oil from the leaking rear crank seal mixed with dust from the clutchplate then this can seal the tiny gap between spigot bush and pinion creating a vacuum when you try to pull the pinion out of the bush. We've all heard of the "Magdeburg Hemipheres"? A vacuum is hard to beat. Cheers Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Well I finally got the engine out today - drilled a hole in the bellhousing so I could get to the clutch bolts, undid those and the engine came away cleanly. The source of the problem was the clutch plate- the centre has become absolutely stuck fast on the splines. No amount of levering, heating, oil would shift it so had to take the plate apart with a grinder so I can get to the centre. Even after grinding it down and splitting it, it still wont come off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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