discomikey Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 So, i know full well that to have a hydraulic handbrake system is illegal. these seem popular with my generation of "drift kings" (or tw*ts as i like to call them) BUT can it be used legally? used for a sensible application? basically im fed up of having to turn the engine off in order to ensure it doesent run away on steep slopes or lesser ones when towing if you retain the origional handbrake setup, is it illegal to have a second, better handbrake too? i.e. hydraulic handbrake fitted to the rear drums? i can sort my handbrake to pass the MOT, but it never lasts. the linkage is well out and i always have problems with it and alignment. my thoughts are, do i have a crappy handbrake that i have to keep fixing to make it hold the vehicle, or do i have 2 systems, one which is guaranteed to work properly, and one that will make it legal. and before you say, i can and would still use the origional handbrake too, just to make sure that if it does run off. the stock handbrake was applied, not left off.. thoughts good idea or bad idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diesel_90 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 If you look at some classic rally cars with hydraulic handbrakes they simply have a cable on the lever that attaches to the pads and pulls then together mechanically also. Obviously all the force is applied by the hydraulic side but to keep it road legal it's also still mechanical. http://www.motamec.com/wilwood-forged-powerlite-4-pot-brake-caliper-handbrake-cable-attachment-13mm.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 the problem i see with it is that in order to do this correctly i need to either do one of the following... tee the handbrake master into the rear brake circuit which means: tapping into service brake system:could be frowned upon even if done to the best of practises although it does mean simplicity, and you can buy special "inline" master cylinders for just this type of thing(and fiddle brakes). also prolonged pressure on the slaves could cause them to leak over a period of time, leaky handbrake seals, an inconvenience and bad enough, but leaky service brake slaves is a very bad thing IMO utilising stage one v8 front twin leading shoe backing plates, maybe using 2x single leading shoe rear mastersprobably wont just work that easy but if so it keeps the handbrake completely separate to the service brakes. just as a note more to stop the safety hacking more than anything... i am a very mindful person and any system i think up, or may try will be thorougly thought through, with safety and optimum operation top of the list. just like my disk brake conversion, i want to keep as much as standard LR as possible. standard service brakes with a secondary system is my ideal, for obvious safety and liability reasons. secondly, i do tell my insurance, and all my conversions (disks, engine) have engineers reports which i show my insurance regardless of whether they ask for them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Forgive me, but has this problem not already been solved in a fairly simple, mechanical, manner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 James, in a word, yes, and no... i would love an X brake, i would also love to support Si in his business especially because he is a fellow forum member, and they are great products. but at £170, its quite an investment for a 20 year old student. i wont say its "expensive" as being an engineer i know how much time, development and thought has gone into this, and i also appreciate the materials used and processes required to manufacture such a solution. I currently couldnt afford that but the cost of a hydraulic handbrake system could be comparatively low, and just as efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 That's fair enough Mikey, I was once a 20-year old Land Rover owning student as well so understand fully! I'm not sure I could do it for a great deal less than £170 though - and any extra would be worth the legal reassurance to me - but that's why I'm a forester and not a mechanical engineer Good luck with coming up with something. I am sure a set of road brakes could be adapted fairly easily with a caliper, a mounting bracket and a disc turned to suit. Could the handbrake lever be modified to drive a hydraulic cylinder directly though? Twin-leading shoe brakes grip well in one direction but not the other - which might be a problem if you park the wrong way on a hill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 16, 2013 Author Share Posted December 16, 2013 the idea with the twin leading shoe backing plate and drum would be to use 2X double acting slaves from standard series rear drums, therefore single leading shoe on both service (as standard) and handbrake. obviously this requires tinkering to work out what fits regarding cylinders, shoes and drums, etc, and efficiencies also have to be well above MOT minimum. i like to have good brakes, i dont like to "just pass" the MOT as i feel brakes are the single most important thing on the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam001 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 In theory yes, you could tap into the rear brake system and have it work as you suggest. However one monumental flaw is brake creep, when a brake system is under pressure it can pass fluid past the seals over long periods (normally in the masters). It is a known fault and the reason why hydraulic handbrakes are illegal and no good as a parking brake. It's mechanical and Electromechanical only I'm afraid, both for the law and in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Why not do something more mechanical with the existing drum, modify it so instead of pushing out a pair shoes, it pushes out say 2 studs that lock into a ring of holes in the hand brake drum. You may need to adjust the mechanism as to how much movement is given for a pull on the brake lever, but that shouldn't be too difficult. No chance of slippage then... I'm sure there are better ways to do it, but that general principle should work quite simply. The other option is to put the handbrake on the front disc brakes, which are less likely to leak than cylinders, and you could probably get a set of rear calipers with cable hand brake attachments that you could utilise.... I know the old Subaru 1800 used to have a handbrake on the front wheels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco1tdi Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 On the studs idea.... no, because the handbrake is the back-up, if the normal hydraulic brakes fail, while in motion.... Imagine applying the locking studs set up at 50mph?.... kaboom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Drill holes in the hand brake drum and fab a tube above it for a drop pin. It'll be like park on an auto then. Say hi to Sam Wayne (dude with one arm) He started at Harper the other week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 On the studs idea.... no, because the handbrake is the back-up, if the normal hydraulic brakes fail, while in motion.... Imagine applying the locking studs set up at 50mph?.... kaboom! have you ever tried applying a series handbrake whilst in 4 wheel drive at speed? kaboom is the same result! another idea i had a while ago is formulate some way to enable the gearbox to select 2 gears, these would nicely lock up the transmission, but again, it couldnt be used as an emergency brake. also you might end up accidentally doing so and destroying the box. Idris, im on placement at the moment but go back fairly regularly for the balls and do's, if i spot him ill give him a shout, whats your name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Funny you should put this up. Both my Avenger and Sunbeam had hydraulic handbrakes. In fact yesterday I found the special tube nut to fit the Imp master cylinder in pipe end. The only problem was NOT to use the foot brake when using the handbrake Yes I had cabls fitted to keep things legal for MOT and scrutineering. Unlike FORD works team who had an Escort fail n MOT because no cables fitted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 In my vast array of left over Land Rover rubbish, I happen to have a Defender X disc and the X-Eng bracket you bolt to the back of a Series transfer case to mount the caliper.... Might you be able to knock something up? As it's the time of year for generosity etc, (and knowing what it is like to be a student) you can have these pieces if you can arrange a relay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Drag racers use a line lock in the drake circuit for the front wheels. Foot on brakes lock the line and take foot off. Even found this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 In my vast array of left over Land Rover rubbish, I happen to have a Defender X disc and the X-Eng bracket you bolt to the back of a Series transfer case to mount the caliper.... Might you be able to knock something up? As it's the time of year for generosity etc, (and knowing what it is like to be a student) you can have these pieces if you can arrange a relay? thats very kind of you sir, i will have to look at caliper prices then as i fear that i have been told theyre nearly as expensive as the full kit, (also a JCB item) do you know how the defender disk compares OD wise to the series item? i dont mind using a lathe. i would much prefer to use the cable operated version than a series "linkage" for obvious alignment reasons im sure i could make it work. whats the legalities of line locks? the issue i see with them is the pressure is held on the main brake cylinders not a seperate system which would be the ideal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I believe the Series disc has a larger inner OD and different bolt pattern. I had planned to bore the centre out and redrill it. You may well be able to use a different type of caliper from something cheap, the Series caliper is not the JCB item I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 On the studs idea.... no, because the handbrake is the back-up, if the normal hydraulic brakes fail, while in motion.... Imagine applying the locking studs set up at 50mph?.... kaboom! OK, spring-loaded pin from behind the brake shoes maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Drill holes in the hand brake drum and fab a tube above it for a drop pin. It'll be like park on an auto then. Oh don't be so cruel - you know someone will try it! Mikey, have you got a longitudinal tie rod between the chassis cross member and bell housing (optional equipment catalogue, as fitted to MoD vehicles)? It makes a huge difference. Checking the condition of the linkage pivot could be revealing - if the pivot is worn, rusted or wobbling on the chassis, you'll lose a lot of lever input force there. Drilling the drum once every 90 degrees with a drain hole could help, as long as you do it without weakening it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I was so fed up with the hand brake on the Beast (RRC) it was my next fix. Drop pin lock works in mud as well Then I went to X-brake. I masquerade as Stephen Knight when I'm not Team Idris. Technically team Idris is also a fair bit of Terry Matheson And under-written by Rosy K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 Oh don't be so cruel - you know someone will try it! Mikey, have you got a longitudinal tie rod between the chassis cross member and bell housing (optional equipment catalogue, as fitted to MoD vehicles)? It makes a huge difference. Checking the condition of the linkage pivot could be revealing - if the pivot is worn, rusted or wobbling on the chassis, you'll lose a lot of lever input force there. Drilling the drum once every 90 degrees with a drain hole could help, as long as you do it without weakening it. the pivot pin and circlips were brand new 6 mths ago, the whole lot is too far away from the chassis meaning there is always strain on the system, it pushes the circlip and washer off, even if i space the pivot pin out as much as possible. i dont much like the pin idea to be honest. something will just end up breaking IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Did you use gen parts? I've never had the circlip come off, and it sounds like there's a fault with either the groove or the clip on yours for it to do that. It's not a perfect solution, putting a fair amount of strain on that pivot and its bracket, but mine is pretty stationary, and even with the 3.54 diffs, which are supposed to need a bigger transmission brake, the original brake holds the car on very steep slopes without a groan or shudder, so yours should too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted December 17, 2013 Author Share Posted December 17, 2013 genuine parts, i even made the groove deeper, making sure i used a washer between the pivot and the circlip as moving parts can sometimes push circlips off. theres so much pressure trying to slide the linkage off the pivot im sure somethings wrong, but the gearbox is on its standard mounts and the chassis isnt modified. it is a replacement galv chassis but i had this problem with the origional chassis too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 What about adapting a transmission brake from something else? The transmission brake On my y60 patrol has only ever needed adjustment once in the 40k/4years i've had owned it, and it has no problems holding the close to 7t train weight On any incline! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Do you have the spreader that goes between the nut and the back face of the chassis bracket? The pivot would move if missing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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