discomikey Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 a good and cheaper alternative to NO2 is LPG injection on a diesel. it acts as a catalyst to burn the airfuel mixture with up to a 95% efficiency, burms so clean and reports suggest a 30-40+% increase in BHP. produces a cooler burn too IIRC. the only issue is that generally speaking engines cant handle the LPG at tickover or fast tickover so there needs to be a rpm related microcontroller, otherwise "starfire" occurs where the piston burns through! the actual LPG introduced is only a very small percentage in comparison to the amount of diesel injected too, too much and things go bang very fast. very risky if set up wrong but so good for both power and economy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 The intercooler does get more oxygen into the cylinders. It still amounts to the same 20ish% of the air, but by cooling the charge, you increase the density. The pressure will be the same in the manifold and the cylinder on induction with or without the intercooler, so if you can maintain that same pressure but increase density by lowering temperature, then you will have more air and oxygen by mass (even though the volume is the same), and thus more oxygen to burn. Remove the intercooler and you lose density, and thus air mass. You can restore that density by increase turbo pressure, but that costs energy from the engine and thus fuel economy. So, while forced induction increases the performance of the engine without mass and size penalty (and the incurred performance and economy penalties of having a bigger chassis, body and suspension to support the bigger engine), and turbo charging used waste thermal energy from the exhaust to run the compressor at little fuel cost (unlike supercharging which does cost a lot of fuel and some of the gained performance), an intercooler increases the effect of the forced induction for free. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jai_landrover Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Question is why the hell wouldn't you fit one? It's not difficult the huge fan and cowling will always draw air through the inter cooler. Last time I discussed this one guy on Facebook was raving about how it's great not having one and the turbo lag was less la la la however he said it became very slow and smokey after an event and melted pistons on the motorway home he did say, he didn't think this was a result of no inter cooler tho which was most reassuring. Good luck if you are using it without. For the extra effort involved of say fit it. Tis like people not fitting turbos to tdi's in series conversions. yes it works ish, yes it may even be better than the sagged out old 2.25 petrol it replaced but it's never going to be right. I mean compression ratio is well low to be much cop without a turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 today i just remembered why i put a 200TDi into mine. god it puts a smile on my face! not sure it would be the same without an intercooler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landowner Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Question is why the hell wouldn't you fit one? It's not difficult the huge fan and cowling will always draw air through the inter cooler. Last time I discussed this one guy on Facebook was raving about how it's great not having one and the turbo lag was less la la la however he said it became very slow and smokey after an event and melted pistons on the motorway home he did say, he didn't think this was a result of no inter cooler tho which was most reassuring. Good luck if you are using it without. For the extra effort involved of say fit it. Tis like people not fitting turbos to tdi's in series conversions. yes it works ish, yes it may even be better than the sagged out old 2.25 petrol it replaced but it's never going to be right. I mean compression ratio is well low to be much cop without a turbo. Mine runs fine with little turbo assist around town, engine is only revving below 2000 most of the time and not pulling hard running at 30mph and below. Turbo boost would be very low most of the time but she pulls along beautiful. I drive most of the time on a light throttle so turbo not on full boost but she goes ok and keeps up with traffic so running without wouldn't be a problem, a friend has a series with a 200 and no turbo and it goes very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Chaps, this is a HOT topic so to speak. We have spend 3 pages of waffling on about how an intercooler actually works. Lots of opinions and hearsay, even some one stated facts . If only someone could do some real life testing that is relevant to the subject, than that is usefull info for this forum, as it stands this is turning into a copy and paste from Wikipedia. Go out and measure something, then report back to us all. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Daan, the original poster was looking for opinions, with re reading his post I can see that he was hoping that with the large number of forum users here, that he would find someone or a group of people who actually have experiences without intercoolers and possibly Di conversions. Sure there are many opinions, some not relevant but there are many that are. Myself I have over 5 years with my Di conversion also following this thread closely as I just installed an universal oil cooler this past Thursday with the intent of installing a turbo within the next few months. No, there will be no intercooler for the simple reason as to the Di conversion years ago, the "legal" requirements here in Sweden. Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Chaps, this is a HOT topic so to speak. We have spend 3 pages of waffling on about how an intercooler actually works. Lots of opinions and hearsay, even some one stated facts . If only someone could do some real life testing that is relevant to the subject, than that is usefull info for this forum, as it stands this is turning into a copy and paste from Wikipedia. Go out and measure something, then report back to us all. Daan we data log all this at work, although i wouldnt be aloud to tell you the results, on the engines we use an intercooler does reduce EGT's, coolant temp and general engine temp, we dont do "power" tests although we do do "static" pull tests. never tested one like for like with/without an intercooler though for comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I haven't fitted an intercooler just because I haven't got round to it. It needed an oil cooler change, air intake change, loads of little jobs to make room for it that just haven't been done yet. The TDi's been in about 6 years now, always without intercooler, and I haven't melted pistons or blown rods or anything like that. I can get high 30mpg's, and sit on the motorway at about 60mpg showing about 95celcius coolant temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 I haven't fitted an intercooler just because I haven't got round to it. It needed an oil cooler change, air intake change, loads of little jobs to make room for it that just haven't been done yet. The TDi's been in about 6 years now, always without intercooler, and I haven't melted pistons or blown rods or anything like that. I can get high 30mpg's, and sit on the motorway at about 60mpg showing about 95celcius coolant temp. Very encouraging report which makes me more confident with the work that I have been doing to finally reinstall the turbo on my 300Di. ejparrott, what do you use for a fan? did you manage to wedge in the original fan or did you convert to an electric? Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Todd, I did a Tdi retrofit into a 109. If you use a Defender engine, you can use the engine driven fan from a 2.5 petrol, but I think the viscous fan will be too close to the rad unless you move it forwards. I used a Discovery engine, and that has the fan too low to be retained - it'd overlap the front cross member and probably make contact with it. I used a 14" electric fan with XEng XFan switch and manual activation switch (to pre-empt the temperature rise for long climbs or if the XFan fails. The intercooler is not covered by the fan, so has limited benefit at low speed, but everything runs just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Very encouraging report which makes me more confident with the work that I have been doing to finally reinstall the turbo on my 300Di. ejparrott, what do you use for a fan? did you manage to wedge in the original fan or did you convert to an electric? Todd. I haven't got one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Todd, I did a Tdi retrofit into a 109. If you use a Defender engine, you can use the engine driven fan from a 2.5 petrol, but I think the viscous fan will be too close to the rad unless you move it forwards. I used a Discovery engine, and that has the fan too low to be retained - it'd overlap the front cross member and probably make contact with it. I used a 14" electric fan with XEng XFan switch and manual activation switch (to pre-empt the temperature rise for long climbs or if the XFan fails. The intercooler is not covered by the fan, so has limited benefit at low speed, but everything runs just fine. Hej Nick, I didn't have the room for the engine driven fan so had to install an electrical fan. The first fan I used was a 12" coupled to the original 300Tdi thermostat switch but with this setup I feared that the engine was getting too hot when on the trails as the fan was running nearly all the time. So now I have an 16" fan coupled to a Fiat dual temp thermostat switch (76 & 84 degrees) I use the 76 degree prong for the summer and then change over to 84 degree prong for the winter. This has worked well for me. My thinking now is that with re installing the turbo I should be OK if I leave the thermostat switch at 76 degrees. From the earlier posts, heat is the main concern and I fully agree with the previous comments that the heat has to be kept in check. Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I haven't got one! And no heat issues, very impressive! Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I haven't got one! same here mine is intercooled, however does a LOT of hard pulling, and high road speeds,even getting "a little on the hot side" has never been an issue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Bob Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Mine's not intercooled with an electric fan that has 'issues' and is currently not working. Hasn't been for quite a while and no heat issues at all regardless of speed and load. The heater gets toasty, but that's all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landowner Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Inter cooler is an add on to increase power, not installed to cool engine parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 its purpose is not to directly cool the engine, but it does have an effect over the EGT's and therefore in turn over the temperature of the engine itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Inter cooler is an add on to increase power, not installed to cool engine parts That was not what I was trying to imply but rather every step has to be taken else where's with the engine to ensure that heat is at bay, before adding a turbo or removing the intercooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yet another page of opinions, great reading! As no one took up my invitation to measure whats going on, I supposed I just have to do it myself.... So here we go, driving my truck to work today, I decided to rig up my camera and get an inside view of what an intercooler does: Driving to work involves a bit of A34 past oxford, then go up hinksey hill from a standing start, modest gradient. First, cruising @ 50 mph on the A34: Cruising @ 70: Accelerating from a red light, up hinksey hill. Flat out @ 30 MPH: Flat out @ 50 MPH: Flat out @ 70 MPH: And the last, just because I could, flat out @ 80 MPH The temperature on the right represents intercooler temp in, the temperature on the left represents intercooler temp out. On the right you can also see boost, measured in the inlet manifold. I measured a good 60 degrees temp drop flat out at 80 MPH, and 40 degrees tempdrop at 30 MPH. The intercooler used has a standard core, but slightly rerouted pipes. Standard cowling is fitted, and using the standard viscous fan. Turbo is standard, boost as per factory. Pump standard, with standard fuel delivery as per factory. I waited for the right moment when there was almost no traffic, at around 7 am this morning. Ambient temp when I left home was 14 deg c. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian_s Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 out of curiosity, did you notice what the temps were at idle after the run? do they drop down to near ambient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 out of curiosity, did you notice what the temps were at idle after the run? do they drop down to near ambient? Yes, very close to ambient. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 would be interested to understand what happens at crawling speed? also do you have a fan? an EGT gauge would be useful too to tranlate the actual manifold inlet temp to exhaust temp? top work, im glad someone has got round to doing the test, as i would love to but dont have the time or the equipment (well work wouldnt allow me to use it for my own project anyway) Do those readouts datalog too? some graphage would be ace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yet another page of opinions, great reading! As no one took up my invitation to measure whats going on, I supposed I just have to do it myself.... Nice one Daan, quite sad as you say that there's pages and pages of opinions but so far you're the only person who's gone and measured something and posted up some actual factual data. You may need to borrow this: I'm sure the team of engineers at Land Rover just did whatever their mate down the pub said would work 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 would be interested to understand what happens at crawling speed? also do you have a fan? an EGT gauge would be useful too to tranlate the actual manifold inlet temp to exhaust temp? top work, im glad someone has got round to doing the test, as i would love to but dont have the time or the equipment (well work wouldnt allow me to use it for my own project anyway) Do those readouts datalog too? some graphage would be ace! At crawling speed, on tickover, not so much happens, as the turbo does not much. the temp drop is 5-10 degrees, as the charge still warms up through the turbo, and than gets cooled down in the intercooler. Anything higher than tickover, the intercooler is very good to have, with the viscous fan and cowling. removal of fan immediately increased temps by 10 degrees while going offroad. On road, removal of the fan increases the temps by about 5 degrees EGT I never measured, I imagine it to be a linear relationship with the inlet charge temp (an assumption!). Maybe someone else could test this? The reason I never spend time on EGT is that I have a standard setup. If you run heavily modded (high boost etc.), EGT can be usefull to know whether the turbine is about to get roasted or has already roasted. Neither of which I have any interest (or worry) in getting near to. There is no data logging option on the readouts, but if you go to the effort of this, I presume you can plug in the thermo couples directly in your logger. On turbo intercooler projects that I worked on professionally, The only thing that really mattered is temperature and boost in the inlet manifold. Most analysis and testing gets always done at the lower speeds (as in accelerating out of a corner), were as at high speed, things are usually ok naturally, due to the air speed. For us, this is even more important, because the speeds we do offroad are much lower still. Nice one Daan, quite sad as you say that there's pages and pages of opinions but so far you're the only person who's gone and measured something and posted up some actual factual data. You may need to borrow this: I'm sure the team of engineers at Land Rover just did whatever their mate down the pub said would work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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