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Deliberatley contorversial comment


David_LLAMA4x4
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I had a converstaion yesterday with an old friend who left offroading a long while ago now for circuit racing but has since ( only recently ) come back to the mud. During this conversation, which included all sorts of random tales, he made a couple of astounding ( to me ) observations of the 'new offroader':

For such a strongly opinionated bunch of people, who have all driven up steeper hills than anyone else ever has, driven through deeper water than was actually even at the venue and built a new sort of supension or transmission mods that not even an F1 engineer would be capable of bodging why are they all such fashion victims?? Why do they all rush out to get the latest thing featured in the mags? why do they follow a direction that can simply be proven to be no where near as good as it claims? Why do they all fit Safari snorkels to cars that only go shopping and have no other waterproofing whatsoever?? The list is endless... Are they not as individual and unique as they make out, are they just sheep in a now marketing dominated sport?

As in the title I'm sure this will provoke anger ( or embarassment? ) amongst some forum memembers but what are the views of you all. Is he right?

David

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There you go then David - you cannot even agree with yourself ;) , so what do you expect from all of us ?!!

Judging by many of the offroaders that I come across I reckon your M8 is right, the stuff people buy and never use, let alone know how to use, is astounding and when it comes to offraoders the very fact that many people buy one in the firstplace is often just a fashion or status statement.

Adam

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To tar everyone with the same brush is rather pointless. There are 'sheep' in every part of every society/pastime. 4x4 owners are no different. Equally there are people who enjoy offroading who are NOT led by marketing hype, just like in everyday life. Everyone is different, and the world is richer because of it.

Your friend has his own choices just like everyone else. He has the advantage of experience which tells him what parts/mods are useful for his use and which are not. Many other people don't have any vehicular/4x4 knowledge or experience and so 'follow the crowd' as it were.

There are far more offroad 'accessories/ mods' available off the shelf now than there were in years gone by. So there are bound to be more 'modified' vehicles (whether the mods are necessary or not).

I say 'live and let live'.

Regards,

Diff

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Three types of 'froader as I see it;

1. Old salt who's been doing it for years and will get further in his Series 2 with SAGs than anyone else.

2. LRO reader who cannot wait to buy the latest 'goody'. Landy will invariably look as it's been dipped in superglue and crashed through the window of Scorpion Racing. Always blames lack of ability (and there's not often any) on lack of equipment. Will never run portals as Scrapiron don't do an extreme, bolt on version, and think 'ProComp tyres are better than Simex - otherwise Ed Cobley would use them'. Thinks a full service history on thier land rover is important. Landy weighs more than the flatbed recovery truck they arrived at the event on.

3. Landy owner who would rather spend money on decent workshop and fabrication kit than Orange things with allen head bolts. Will research and learn before starting a mod. Trucks invariably aren't showroom clean, but with massively well engineered and fabricated mods (mostly self-done) that make Number 2 think 'that's a good idea - how much did Scorpion charge for it?' Enjoys the sport for the mechanical and engineering challenges just as much as the offroading. Understated wagon will get nearly as far as Number 1....

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Before I was into Land Rovers i was into Mountain Biking, dirt jumps, downhill - that kinda thing. In the mountain biking magazines and on the forums there was always this agument about and prejudice against those who paid someone else to work on their bikes, and yet in that sport there was almost zero home builds, everything was bought, and you were considered "techy" because you knew the size of your chainring or how to shim a three-piece crank.

I dont know if making things yourself, or going out and buying them makes you a lesser or greater person, its just down to personal choice IMHO. But seeing trucks that are coated in scrapiron goodies just advertises to me that the owner/driver is a tw*t - in the same way that the BMW with the blaring sound sytem pushing in at the traffic lights does.

Some things I am capable of making/doing myself and i do them. Some things I research, decide which one i like and then get someone to make a custom one for me (if i ever decide on the design, and email a sketch :rolleyes: ). And some things I go out and buy because I like the look of them/they have good reviews/ they are well designed/I couldnt make it myself - my suspension being a prime example of this - interesting i bought it all from David who started this thread. Its all just personal choice

I would say that Davids mate needs to stop worrying about what other people are doing. So what if they choose to spend money on a snorkle - its their money and their choice. Blame the mags if anyone for their awful content and not educating readers

This sport/hobby is filled with inovation from simple things like using a BMW coil condom to help water proofing or SiWhites instrument cluster, to more wild stuff like Petal or Moglite. Long may it continue

Finally, In my very humble opinion this forum is at the forefront of UK inovation, its members are those who lead, and I am proud to be one that follows (like a sheep)

Lewis

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To tar everyone with the same brush is rather pointless. There are 'sheep' in every part of every society/pastime. 4x4 owners are no different. Equally there are people who enjoy offroading who are NOT led by marketing hype, just like in everyday life. Everyone is different, and the world is richer because of it.

Your friend has his own choices just like everyone else. He has the advantage of experience which tells him what parts/mods are useful for his use and which are not. Many other people don't have any vehicular/4x4 knowledge or experience and so 'follow the crowd' as it were.

There are far more offroad 'accessories/ mods' available off the shelf now than there were in years gone by. So there are bound to be more 'modified' vehicles (whether the mods are necessary or not).

I say 'live and let live'.

Regards,

Diff

I think you are probably right... live and let live. And yes, he has oodles of all sorts of motorsport experience to fall back on. To be honest I think that is what bugs him... he knows what is what and could help the others save a fortune and stop them falling into so many disasters if only they would listen instead of already knowing better!

David

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Well its kinda inevitable that 4x4's will 'all look the same':

The people in the sport are after achieving the same thing, getting about offroad, yes yoe get big mud tyres, yes you get suspension lifts, yes you get big chunks of metal stuck on a truck to protect it and you end up with a snorkel for wading.

But

If you circuit race, surely everyone wants to win/ do well, so, you get branded slick tyres, lower suspension, lightened panels, and big bits of plastic wing stuck on the car to give it downforce and the latest must have digital flashing tacho.

Whats the difference.

In essence both disciplines have participants out to achieve the same thing in that sport, and at the end of the day, for most people, you end up with a similar solution, cos it works.

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I think its similar to the boyrace culture (no offense to anyone). They dont go racing either do they? But for a lot of people the thought that their vehicle can go offroad doesn't necesarily mean they do it. Most discos or rangys never go offroad anyway, so why were they bought in the first place. If you tell the average jo block the carpets got wet due to wading, he thinks your mad. Most people dont want that and therefore might as well forget about the snorkel. I have seen defenders with snorkels that were not even connected! Still the snorkel is probs the most popular mod. I think the camel trophy have inspired a lot of people to this kind of thing.

I suppose its a culture, lots of people like the look of an offroader and thats it. The result is that people like yourself make a living out of it, so I wouldn't question it to much if I were you!

Daan

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"live & let live" indeed, but you can't help but laugh sometimes...!

You don't see many of them admittedly, but the ones that really make me chuckle are the "around town" Defenders with immaculate gleaming paintwork, acres of shiny chequer plate, nice winch, snorkel etc, but strictly on-road tyres! :huh::rolleyes:

Steve

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minge

thats such a great word - havent heard it in ages :lol:

should be good to see what solutions this guy turns up with David, coming in from a different slant I would guess its going to be a bit of a departure from the norm, can he post some pics up as he builds?

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I see snorkels on road cars as a little like jewlery. Rather pointless and looks nice if you like that sort of thing. There is not much on my Landrover that I do not need or does not serve a function. :)

I can not afford a workshop or the money to fill it with fancy - or not so fancy - tools. Even if I could afford it I lack the skills/patience/attention to detail to make proper use of it. :( This means that I have to pay other people for the bits that they have made. I guess then that I am a bad person - at least, looking at some of the comments made above.

Ah well...

Chris

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i reckon its a bit like the boy racer thing aswell... most of the scallys that parade up and down southend sea front on saturday evenings with 10 grands worth of chrome and carbon bolted to their 'type R's' wouldn't be able to outdrive my mum, just like some of those who turn up to winch challenge events with 10 grands worth of LRO recommended, orange carp bolted to their Td5 defenders.....

everything thats been done to my disco, and my old defender, was done by me, for a good reason....

i've not got a lot of time for boy racers, or for the scorpion bolt-on brigade.... but the superiority complex sometimes exhibited by those who spend every weekend standing infront of a mill or a lathe annoys me a bit aswell. :rolleyes:

...and my truck does need a snorkle (on next months shopping list) as i had a near death experience with it in wales, and don't want it to happen again.... :rolleyes:

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biggest load of drivel I heard in ages.

good job people buy things otherwise business would go bust.

mags feature new products as how else would people have seen them before the internet?

ps

circuit racing is only about biggest budgets

offroading is more from skill/engineering

just look at

Jes/Dirty diesel/moglite/Paul Wightman/Jim (D90SV)simonr

all engineers and very skilled bugger all to do with big budgets

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Chris - your comment seems a bit aimed at me so I'll explain.

None of these things make make you a bad person! Let's face it, even the most scrapiron crazy, bolt on enthused person is still an off roader and therefore likes the same thing I'm passionate about and therefore they're fine by me. I guess I'm a bit washed out by all the 8 page adverts and the money coming into the sport these days which is making the sport less affordable to your average Joe with an average pay packet (i.e me)

In the end of the day, someone who uses thier truck regularly offroad is actually more of a participant than someone who only gets out every month or two - the latter of which I am guilty of (but I only get one weekend in five off - I've got an excuse!)

The sport is constantly evolving and new parts are being released all the time. That doesn't mean to say we're any better off.

The following passage sums up my feelings on the matter more eloquenly than I could ever hope to convey - from Lost Worlds by Michael Bywater.

It's OT, but relavant none the less;

"The bottom two sections were split cane, but the top was built cane. Built cane was better. It had to be built, not split. The result was...better. Better than what? It didn't say, but you could have entire fishing rods made of built cane and they were the best.

It lived in a green canvas bag which presently took on a unique odour of maggots and maggot bran and groundbait and aniseed or fish, but not much fish because there weren't many fish to be had in the river, by the power station, just downstream from the new bridge. But that didn't matter. Fish weren't the point. The point was that the fishing rod went in it's green canvas bag, and the other things went in their old canvas holdall - the maggots and the groundbait, the plastic wallet with hooks and floats and rubber bands, the disgorger (in case there was a fish) and the keep net (to keep fish in, if there was a fish, because you wouldn't eat the fish; they tasted of mud and bones) and the little folding stool, and the transistor radio which your father had sent for.

And that was it. Sometimes the river was high; sometimes, low. There were rules about what fish did in either case, and what they liked to eat, and how to catch them, but you didn't know the rules because they were for people who went fishing, and this was not about going fishing, this was about sitting on the embankment, by the power station, just downstream from the new bridge, and thinking 'Here I am: fishing.'

Now the rods are fibreglass or carbon fibre, and anglers speak of elastic return and bearings and low drag rings, and there are fish-finders and strike-alerters and bait-casters and a thousand bits of technology designed to take your money from you, and the old pleasure - 'Here I am: fishing' - has been taken away, replaced with a new, edgier one - 'Here I am, dissatisfied with my technology and wanting more of it.'

Built cane rods? Forget it. What would you want one of those for?

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Three types of 'froader as I see it;

1. Old salt who's been doing it for years and will get further in his Series 2 with SAGs than anyone else.

2. LRO reader who cannot wait to buy the latest 'goody'. Landy will invariably look as it's been dipped in superglue and crashed through the window of Scorpion Racing. <SNIP>

3. Landy owner who would rather spend money on decent workshop and fabrication kit than Orange things with allen head bolts. <SNIP>

Spot on Si, different strokes for different folks.

It is the same in speed events some people buy all the toys, the latest shiny shocks, fancy rims strengthened drive train and lots of bolt on go faster bits and others shun the 'bling' and build a no-nonsense car and rely on solid engineering and good driving to compete.

There's room for both, but I'm firmly in the inverse snobbery school - I spend less money, but go just as fast! I am thinking about splashing out on some shiny shocks though! ;)

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