Deliberatley contorversial comment

[honitonhobbit]

I had a converstaion yesterday with an old friend who left offroading a long while ago now for circuit racing but has since ( only recently ) come back to the mud. During this conversation, which included all sorts of random tales, he made a couple of astounding ( to me ) observations of the 'new offroader':

For such a strongly opinionated bunch of people, who have all driven up steeper hills than anyone else ever has, driven through deeper water than was actually even at the venue and built a new sort of supension or transmission mods that not even an F1 engineer would be capable of bodging why are they all such fashion victims?? Why do they all rush out to get the latest thing featured in the mags? why do they follow a direction that can simply be proven to be no where near as good as it claims? Why do they all fit Safari snorkels to cars that only go shopping and have no other waterproofing whatsoever?? The list is endless... Are they not as individual and unique as they make out, are they just sheep in a now marketing dominated sport?

As in the title I'm sure this will provoke anger ( or embarassment? ) amongst some forum memembers but what are the views of you all. Is he right?

David

[GBMUD]

Chris - your comment seems a bit aimed at me so I'll explain.

Not aimed at you personally Si, just at anyone with the "if you bought it you are not a proper off-roader" POV.

Chris

[white90]

I'd love to make things

but therein lies the problem..

I can't

through lack of knowledge/skill

I enjoy the mechanics on the vehicle and can work on other related things, am carp at welding (but want to learn)

Love offroading, am good at damaging panels.

so I have to buy things I want as I can't make winches/etc

but nothing on my 90 is there for show it is all for a purpose, if it is no use then I'll take it off.

[pugwash]

I wouldn't like to make things, mainly becuase they would be totally sh*t

i'm good with a grinder though

[Paul Humphreys]

PS Pro Comp XTerrain is actually a great tyre

I have to dissagree with that

Paul

[simonr]

I had a converstaion yesterday with an old friend who left

That paperwork must have been boring!

(He spent an hour on the phone too, to me to escape the boring paperwork!) Feel free to phone again - interesting conversation!

I'd love to make things

but therein lies the problem..

I can't

through lack of knowledge/skill

I enjoy the mechanics on the vehicle and can work on other related things, am carp at welding (but want to learn)

Love offroading, am good at damaging panels.

so I have to buy things I want as I can't make winches/etc

but nothing on my 90 is there for show it is all for a purpose, if it is no use then I'll take it off.

One of my friends - OK It's Graham (Rocker), you dragged it out of me! - used to say similar. With a little help from Rogue Vogue and a bit of enthusiasm, he has built one of the best Bobtailed RR's I've seen (Sorry Charles!).

You (and most of the rest of you) have lots of friends who would love to help and let you gain the knowledge/skill - so you could do it if you really wanted!

I have always taken an attitude to building stuff of: If I cannot buy it, or I can build it for significantly less cost - then I'll build it. Otherwise save yourself a load of hassle and buy it! I don't think there is any shame in buying a solution - but it's still interesting to experiment even if you get it wrong sometimes.

Si

[white90]

True

I help and call on the help of a good set of friends inc lots of people on here

Welding is what I want to learn to do next

I have the gear but no experience.

so a night school or similar will be sought.

unless I can find another helpful sole to spend/waste some time showing me some more welding

[RocKeR]

One of my friends - OK It's Graham (Rocker), you dragged it out of me! - used to say similar. With a little lot of help from Rogue Vogue and a bit of enthusiasm, he has built one of the best Bobtailed RR's I've seen (Sorry Charles!).

You (and most of the rest of you) have lots of friends who would love to help and let you gain the knowledge/skill - so you could do it if you really wanted!

It's all so true! When you have friends who are so practical, it's hard not to feel very inadequate! But that's what friends are for! I could not have built my car on my own. Apart from my complete lack of confidence in my own abilities, there's the general level of experience that comes from people who have done it, and more importantly, not done it because things go wrong.

I knew what I wanted, but didn't know how to get there. With the help of my friends, we've done what other people probably spend thousands doing.

[filthy boy]

I have to dissagree with that

Paul

Excellent off road at low pressure.

For what they are designed to do.

Biggest problem is the weak side wall. SO get the comp spec ones that have extra layers.

Why are they no good in your experience / opinion.

FB

[jules]

Spot on Si, different strokes for different folks.

It is the same in speed events some people buy all the toys, the latest shiny shocks, fancy rims strengthened drive train and lots of bolt on go faster bits and others shun the 'bling' and build a no-nonsense car and rely on solid engineering and good driving to compete.

There's room for both, but I'm firmly in the inverse snobbery school - I spend less money, but go just as fast! I am thinking about splashing out on some shiny shocks though!

Shiny shocks are always a must Henry but they will make you go faster and you'll end up breaking more stuff

I think it’s good for new people to come into the world of off roading

As some of you know I started the Shires with Ali, John, Richey & wife, Nick, Jim and a few others this does not make us the best drivers out there but I have learned a thing or two, I have watched people that when they first started were very green and now there respected competitive drivers and respected club members and others building there own trucks.

Everyone has to start some where I don't see why we should hold it against them.

Yes I'm guilty of using the term cheque book off roader but not as a malicious statement.

There is a fine line between someone who has all the toys and can put there truck almost anywhere and some one who can’t this doesn’t stop them from being a laugh or just as enthusiastic as each other.

[honitonhobbit]

Excellent off road at low pressure.

For what they are designed to do.

Biggest problem is the weak side wall. SO get the comp spec ones that have extra layers.

Why are they no good in your experience / opinion.

FB

Have to agree with Filthy here. First time I used them was on a Supercharged TJ and though 'what a load of pants' then upon a suggestion from the vehicles owner I aired down to 14psi. Wow - stuck like baby poo to a wool blanket to any surface

Sorry to post hi-jackish

[Turbocharger]

Two Ford Escorts are at the traffic lights. One owner has spent £2000 and two hours bolting on a supercharger, one has fettled his own suspension from unobtanium and spent unknown hours adjusting it to be just right.

The traffic lights change to green, the supercharged Escort leaps ahead and leads by two lengths into the first corner. By the third bend the lowered Escort has squeezed past and taken the lead; they accompany each other over twelve miles of varied straights and corners, passing and re-passing each other. As they enter the next town they're actually line-abreast, with a huge grin on the face of both owners. Who won?

[pugwash]

neither

they're both driving escorts

[jules]

I was going to say nice way of putting it then I read what Pugwash said

The argument about who can build the best stuff in their garage and how long and loud they can harp on about it and those who has had it made for them or bought it off the shelf was not what this post was about.

I was under the impression it was about people having all the mods on there trucks but can't drive for toffee although they think their a driving god.

[David_LLAMA4x4]

I was going to say nice way of putting it then I read what Pugwash said

The argument about who can build the best stuff in their garage and how long and loud they can harp on about it and those who has had it made for them or bought it off the shelf was not what this post was about.

I was under the impression it was about people having all the mods on there trucks but can't drive for toffee although they think their a driving god.

The argument will rage on about the build or buy I'm sure. There are however simple reasons to build or buy depending on ability and facility. I am glad there are people out there who do buy as it keeps me in business! And IMHO I don't sell anything on the 'Bling' front as suggested in an earlier post.... I choose to sell stuff that can actually make a difference.

There are also some people out there who make great stuff out of bits they have lying around and all credit is due to them.

There is a lot of stuff that is home made that simply doesn't work! Like there is a whole load of stuff out there you can buy that doesn't work!

What intrigues me ( leave the mate who started the whole thing behind now ) is what brings some people to buy the carp they do? We all know that it is their right and god forbid the choice of freedom is ever taken away ( though Tony / Gordon are trying ) but what drives these people to buy stuff that simply has no use on their car?

The two Escort drivers both won in their own class!! Both of them did mods to their cars that improved the performance.

Now if one of them had spent £150 on a spoiler designed to not effect the airflow over car ( cosmetic ) and fitted it to a car that did not go fast enough to really have aerodynim issues...

What made him buy that spoiler? Is he pretending it makes him go faster? To himself? To others? Why???

David

[pugwash]

david

i think what you are talking about is fitment for purpose.

like most people on thse boards i find it faintly ridiculous when people go out and mod their trucks so that they are no long fit for purpose- i posted a while ago about a chap who had spent £20k on a shiny to include raises, winches, cages etc etc and wouldn't take the car off road because it might get scratched and muddy- he had spent thousands on a car just to make it look like something it isn't- in that way i guess it is a bit like ridiculous bling. To be honest i don't care that these people waste there money, just so long as they aren't surprised when i tiddle myself at them.

there is also a rather strange conformist sensibility often found in the offroading world that i don't really understand- i think it stems from the fact that for years any serious off roading really had to be undertaken in a 90 (or 88) as they were the only vehicles that were readily accessible and moddable to the man on the street. we are left with a situation where fairly original and interesting mods are ridiculed because they aren't the thing to do. This is going to strangle the sport if we aren't careful i fear.

[David_LLAMA4x4]

david

i think what you are talking about is fitment for purpose.

like most people on thse boards i find it faintly ridiculous when people go out and mod their trucks so that they are no long fit for purpose- i posted a while ago about a chap who had spent £20k on a shiny to include raises, winches, cages etc etc and wouldn't take the car off road because it might get scratched and muddy- he had spent thousands on a car just to make it look like something it isn't- in that way i guess it is a bit like ridiculous bling. To be honest i don't care that these people waste there money, just so long as they aren't surprised when i tiddle myself at them.

there is also a rather strange conformist sensibility often found in the offroading world that i don't really understand- i think it stems from the fact that for years any serious off roading really had to be undertaken in a 90 (or 88) as they were the only vehicles that were readily accessible and moddable to the man on the street. we are left with a situation where fairly original and interesting mods are ridiculed because they aren't the thing to do. This is going to strangle the sport if we aren't careful i fear.

Total agreement, throughout

David

[Yostumpy]

CONTRAVERSIAL !!!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think were all forgetting one thing in this wide ranging debate THE MEDIA!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was a reference earlier in the thread to mountainbiking, which I started in about '91, hence my name of stumpy ( incident with a tree stump) there was none of the hype , the bling, the must haves, the magazines that dealt with it were more like dive magazines or caving etc, slightly on the fringe but written by get out there nutters who knew their stuff. About '94-95 the mountain bike bonanza started and the mags went crazy with wild death defying stunts on the covers, more bling than you could shake anything at, bikes went from a good one being £500 to a "good to be seen on" one a t around £1500. All because af the power of the press. SURE they wouldnt print it if people didnt read it, But people wouldnt read it if they didnt print it!!!!!!!!!!! Take the Tabloids HOW MUCH OF WHAT YOU READ DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE IS ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY BUT YOU STILL READ IT!!. Back to land rovers look back to the magazines of the mid 80's, fairly basic stuff, maybe a winch and a Brownchurch bush bar. Still entertaining,.

If people want to PIMP THEIR RIDE so be it we all follow what trend we want to, the only people laughing are the

PURVEYORS OF BLING , and the rest of us. I myself do have x-plate on wing tops and centre bonnet, but this is 'cause im frequently genting up there to tie things to the rack, and believe me jumping off a roofrack with wet slipperry boots onto a shiny ally bonnet can be a bit scary without it. Take LRO eg, not a bad rag but 6-8 pages of scrapiron bling, obviously they pay a lot for this add. One of my pet hateS is when people advertise like this but wont put prices on anything in mag. SHOULD BE A RULE. NO PRICES. NO AD!!!!!!!!! If theyd only put it in the form of a flyer slipped in the middle , we could all use it to wipe up dog poo!, if one had a dog that is!!!!!!! 2% rise in the interest rate and BLING AND CO. WOULD GO POP. NICE TO SEE SOME VARIED OPINION THO'

[David_LLAMA4x4]

[

Don't start me on my magazine rant for God's dake!!!

They are ( mainly ) full of very empty promises verging on theft on occasion!!( OK they get out of jail free by saying that it is a contributor and not a member of staff....

They deny knowing things they know to avoid printing them and they promise all sorts but produce ltttle of it.

I have had a couple of direct 'issues' with the mags and most of it boils down to the fact I don't spend enough advertising with them to get anything...

I know they have to run a business and look after their clients so why not drop the 'voice of the people' laugh and admit to being a single topic Yellow Pages.

I once organised a factory vist to a British Parabolic Spring company ( can you guess which one? ) and in return I was promised that ( with the factory permission ) I would be given as the contact if you wanted a set.... we even agreed pretty much on what the wording should be. When it was printed the pictures were there and the text was there but I was not mentioned at all and the contact was given as the factory number direct! What in the (LR ) World did this editor do that for??

Another one worth a giggle is when I was organiser of the British Indoor 4x4 Show at Donington Park ( now sold on to TOR mag but still agood show).. Every year I would send the press release to a magazine aimed at Land Rover Owners. Every month when it didn't appear I would phone and ask why. Every time they said that they knew nothing of it nut if I gave them some info they would do a press release... This would happen every month until it was too late.... Then evry time ( 4 or 5 years ) they would phone up asking where their PressPasses were :

Each time I would have to point out that their passes were like my publicity - I knew nothing about it!

David

[geoffbeaumont]

You don't see many of them admittedly, but the ones that really make me chuckle are the "around town" Defenders with immaculate gleaming paintwork, acres of shiny chequer plate, nice winch, snorkel etc, but strictly on-road tyres!

Steve

When I was running my Rangie as my daily driver it spent most of it's time on road biased tyres, too. The chunkier ones lived in the garage when I wasn't playing. It isn't very shiny (the first days laning saw to that), and neither does it have many bolt on bits, but if I'd had the money when I first got it it probably would have gained a nice paint job and probably a number of ill-considered accessories.

[Chris Abel]

Each to there own!

We are all diffrent and that's what makes the world go round, if people want to spend money on bling stuff for there truck and dont take it offroad so what, most 4x4's have never been offroad anyway.

[HoSS]

Each to there own!

We are all diffrent and that's what makes the world go round, if people want to spend money on bling stuff for there truck and dont take it offroad so what, most 4x4's have never been offroad anyway.

here here. Its all about being happy.

If we start pouring derision on those who prefer to bolt bits on, rather than build themselves - I don't see how thats any different from the loonies who say " why do you have a 4x4?, you dont need it" or "you shouldnt be using this lane in a car"

Personally i'm a Number 3 - enjoy as much working on the landy as driving it & prefer to build something myself than buy it.

But, each to their own.

[Andy]

i find it funny that people buy stuff for their trucks that they dont need/use but just for the look. who really cares though its their money to waste. ask them & buyin what was a tidy disco & bending every panel then painting it with a 4" roller is nuts, its worked for me though.

my mods are normally brought as i cant make stuff, no skills & no tools. i do make my one own out of some cheaper stuff brought elsewhere - ie trailer lights on the back rather than expensive guards. if i could make stuff i probably would some of the time, i enjoy building a truck as much if not more than using it.

[Troll Hunter]

...... and another major advantage of a snorkel, provided it's properly connected, is that you are drawing in air that a) is not from the hot engine compartment, and B) even if your air intake is direct from the wing air vent, you get far less dust at that height above road level. I haven't got one, but I just might!

MikeRowen

[Paul Humphreys]

Excellent off road at low pressure.

For what they are designed to do.

Biggest problem is the weak side wall. SO get the comp spec ones that have extra layers.

Why are they no good in your experience / opinion.

FB

Just no grip, I ried them all pressures. No good going backwards either. My Bronco Dirt Devils were a lot better. Yes the side walls are carp, they cut to easey. Not to bad in deep mud, do not like coming out of ruts, or biteing into the ground.

Paul