Best recovery option?

[western]

tow jaw pins are rated for 3.5tonne on a 2 bolt fixed pin/ball hitch, if it's a 4 bolt fixing then it's a 4 tonne rating. NATO pintle for LR's is rated at 5tonne.

any rallycars that I recover get chains or straps around the suspension lower arms if they are still attached to the subject vehicle. 

 & about 95% get winched out.

[miggit]

^ Slow and steady wins the race!! Snatch recovery is very hit or miss.

[BogMonster]

18 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'm not a fan as I've not seen many steering guards which look as solid as a proper JATE ring.

Also they make great ploughs, I prefer the uprated steering bars approach rather than protect the weak!

Fair point but you can't fit a steering guard with a JATE ring. Each to their own but I like the armour and it has the scars to prove it was worthwhile

I would never tow off an axle, damage to brake lines being one reason, the fact you can't usually reach it being another.

Interestingly - and there will be those who argue - for many years I have simply used a heavily reinforced tow rope that can slip over the end of the front bumper and take a good tug without cutting. No, it doesn't come off, as long as you use the right end of the bumper for the direction of towing. Nor does the bumper, unless it's pretty damaged to start with.

Given most boggings here are vehicles bellied out in soft peat with relatively little traction available to the tow vehicle, snatch recovery is more often than not the only way, so most people do it to some extent most of the time. You don't have to set off at Warp 9, and the magnitude of the tug can be measured to suit the situation. All my ropes are long and nylon.

[toenden]

A mate of mine have fitted a couple of tow rings to the bolt in the front bush on the radius arms. It works really well in competition use when running multible vehicle events on hills as it is the axle and not the chassis that gets dragged over the top. The codriver do however need to have an eye on the rope/winch line not to get in contact with the wheels..

/mads

[Bowie69]

My Paddocks steering guard from years ago has 10mm side plates with large eyes drilled through, each side is held by 3 M10 bolts and is as solid as you like...

'Proper' JATE rings are probably fine for most recoveries, but having something that isn't tucked way under the vehicle is a plus point when really bogged -on a Disco or RRC JATE rings mount way under the truck on the rear.

The cheap nasty 'jate' rings are likely as not, not much cop.

[elbekko]

3 hours ago, BogMonster said:

Given most boggings here are vehicles bellied out in soft peat with relatively little traction available to the tow vehicle, snatch recovery is more often than not the only way, so most people do it to some extent most of the time. You don't have to set off at Warp 9, and the magnitude of the tug can be measured to suit the situation. All my ropes are long and nylon.

Yup. For us we'll do a winch recovery if fine control is needed, but snatch recovery starting off slowly is usually the first resort. Just take it easy and take your time, if you see it's not working switch to winching if possible.

[landroversforever]

I guess the trouble with recovery is something where everyone has their own ideas on what works or doesn't work for them. I've never liked the idea of putting anything round an axle unless its the only option, too many things to damage in my eyes. As for a kinetic rope, there are far too many people that think you have to set off at warp speed to do anything. I always liked using my long strap for recovery. Not only does it double up as a winch extension, but having very little stretch I liked it for being able to feel how much force I was putting in, easing along until you feel the tension. 

[BogMonster]

One thing I didn't add is that for me, being in charge of the recovery and using my own equipment is the important thing. The one thing I'd always try and avoid is somebody I didn't know either using their own equipment, or being in charge of the loud pedal on the towing vehicle. My rope, my rules, and everybody will come out alive

I will use the winch, but it isn't always effective with a very stuck vehicle (moves them closer together but not in the right way). Tend to prefer that if there are dodgy looking recovery points on the other vehicle.

[mickeyw]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:51 PM, landroversforever said:

I guess the trouble with recovery is something where everyone has their own ideas on what works or doesn't work for them. I've never liked the idea of putting anything round an axle unless its the only option, too many things to damage in my eyes. As for a kinetic rope, there are far too many people that think you have to set off at warp speed to do anything. I always liked using my long strap for recovery. Not only does it double up as a winch extension, but having very little stretch I liked it for being able to feel how much force I was putting in, easing along until you feel the tension. 

I once had a brilliant demonstration of the capabilities of a kinetic recovery rope, from a very experienced and respected instructor.

He recovered my 90 from a hole with a Suzuki SJ that didn't have a whole lot of tread on its tyres. The LR just popped out with minimal drama - no silly speeds, no mega wheel spinning and no damage. A slightly embarrassing event, but it really proved what a KERR can do IN SAFE HANDS!! I cannot emphasise that last bit enough. A KERR can be deadly, such is the reason that most clubs I know of have banned them. I would not use one for the majority of the play day wrecks that I have to recover.

23 hours ago, BogMonster said:

One thing I didn't add is that for me, being in charge of the recovery and using my own equipment is the important thing. The one thing I'd always try and avoid is somebody I didn't know either using their own equipment, or being in charge of the loud pedal on the towing vehicle. My rope, my rules, and everybody will come out alive

I will use the winch, but it isn't always effective with a very stuck vehicle (moves them closer together but not in the right way). Tend to prefer that if there are dodgy looking recovery points on the other vehicle.

Echoing all of this, especially knowing your own equipment.

I'll just add that when we've had a really stuck vehicle, and not been entirely confident in the winch attachment point, a 'safety lanyard' has been employed. By this I mean we connected a rope from the winch hook to a second fixing point on the stuck vehicle. This is not to spread the load, but if the winching point did fail the lanyard stops the winch hook and any attached metal going far enough to hurt anyone.

Most of the recovery I do is in wooded areas, so a tow recovery could easily result in damage due to tree contact. Winching allows accuracy and control  in this situation.

[Bowie69]

45 minutes ago, mickeyw said:

 

I'll just add that when we've had a really stuck vehicle, and not been entirely confident in the winch attachment point, a 'safety lanyard' has been employed. By this I mean we connected a rope from the winch hook to a second fixing point on the stuck vehicle. This is not to spread the load, but if the winching point did fail the lanyard stops the winch hook and any attached metal going far enough to hurt anyone.

 

Excellent idea, far more likely to get used than a winch blanket, and more effective than a rolled up one for sure.

I can almost see a case for one being all the time.

[western]

the pin is good for a 3500kg if its part of a 2 bolt attachment  or 4000kg if its a 4 bolt attachment. 

a NATO Pintle is rated at 5000kg for the LR size variant on a 4 bolt attachment 

[BogMonster]

11 hours ago, mickeyw said:

I'll just add that when we've had a really stuck vehicle, and not been entirely confident in the winch attachment point, a 'safety lanyard' has been employed. By this I mean we connected a rope from the winch hook to a second fixing point on the stuck vehicle. This is not to spread the load, but if the winching point did fail the lanyard stops the winch hook and any attached metal going far enough to hurt anyone.

Most of the recovery I do is in wooded areas, so a tow recovery could easily result in damage due to tree contact. Winching allows accuracy and control  in this situation.

Dyneema doesn't whip like a wire rope, one thing I like about it.

Trees are not so much of a problem round here

[Phantom]

Quote -

   On 23/01/2018 at 10:23 AM,  mmgemini said: 

Me I do recovery DIFFERENT to everybody else. I recover from the axles. That way you don't pull the body and chassis from the axles

 

Mike, I agree that the axle is a good place to pull from. However, most 4x4s I end up recovering at play days generally have their axles very well buried/submerged in the mud. If they don't have suitable accessible recovery points fitted I invite the driver to attach my strap around the axle themselves. They're not often that keen on the idea despite my suggestion that they could always stay in there. Although the look on their faces is priceless I've learned not to trust what they THINK they've attached to.
I had a Jeep Cherokee driver attach the strap to his steering bar last year. Needless to say it didn't end well for him, and this of course leads to getting the blame for his truck getting damaged!

So I guess you can understand why I like strong bumpers with integral recovery points on an offroader.

This is how the idiots roll. Not even a towbar if I recall.

 - Quote

 

Recovering using axles,  seriously??  Your really asking for trouble, the high potential stresses and damage to suspension bushes and joints, if you don’t rip an axle off the stuck vehicle during a heavy recovery how do you think it’s going to drive after?? 

You won’t find the above technique in any borda or lantra training  manuals ( for a reason! ) .

It scares me how poor, inappropriate and bordering dangerous some ‘advice’ on the net is.

If your not sure, go and get trained by a professional before you damage your vehicle; or worse, hurt someone ( btw, I’m a qualified borda instructor ).

Edited January 28, 2018 by Phantom

[qwakers]

i cant help but  agree with this. sorry guys but having spent several years spending all my free time doing winch challenges being recovered or helping recover others, ive seen some real cock ups, several of which involved using axles to recover. twice ive had to trailer someone elses (daily driver) landrover home beacuase the axle is either partially ripped from the chassis or otherwise damaged.

 

the axle is not designed to take that kind of force and i would NEVER recover using a axle.

Edited January 28, 2018 by qwakers

[Mutley]

I have reading this debate on this thread and a question/query arose in my tiny mind?....

Now this maybe a stupid question but i am a simple guy with the will to learn.

So here goes......  i will keep numbers simple as i dont know them, but you should get the idea!?!....... 

If it takes 10 Ton of force to pull a chassi from the axle or visa versa....

And the motor is stuck with both axles in mud, causing drag and therefore requires12 plus Ton of force to remove or just move it (a 90 weighing 2.5 Ton approx then add the 10 Ton of mud drag as both axles are stuck).....Surely it wont matter if attach to chassi or axle as they will be separated any way?

Is it a case of all you can do is hope they dont, but if they do, which will be the cause the least damage, fixing to chassi or fixing to axle?

Or is my thinking totaly wrong and i need a grown up to explain?.....Still willing to learn and understand, thanks

Edited January 28, 2018 by Mutley

[Blanco]

On the subject of recovery from mud the very best lesson I  learned was patience. ....... apply the force you have available be it 2 or 3 or 4 tons and wait. .... then go  again,  don't be in a hurry and bit by bit the vehicle  (in my case a digger) can be coaxed out. Just my 2p......

[miggit]

I can see why there are drawbacks to recovering off the axles, especially done badly... but surely if the vehicle is stuck, it will ultimately be the axles holding it fast, unless it's a series that's hung up on the gearbox crossmember.... If you're going to be using snatch recovery then it needs to be a really solid point(s). 

One of the many botched recoveries I've watched recently, the 4x4 lost it's axle despite being pulled on the chassis... the axle dug in and the car was ripped off it. Anything can happen, but it's best to try and undo what got you stuck, ie. backup!