Axles

[ianmayco68]

Hi all , I’ve got a 110 200tdi with a Salisbury rear axle which I’ve converted to discs using the diesel Jim method and I’m presuming a long nose diff on the front axle , I planning on giving the internals a rebuild in the near future and I’m looking for help and guidance on what’s best for my usage. I’ve read lots of threads but none really any help and I’ve watched Nige’s videos on various upgrades which have helped a lot , I don’t really want to change what I have just make them a bit stronger and add a atb or auto locking diff in there while I’m at it . So as to usage it’s a daily driver , used for green laning and off roading but nothing extreme fishing trips and we live in a rural location so roads aren’t the best and normally muddy and covered in other nasty stuff , so would an atb or a auto locking diff be better for my needs ? I’m presuming an air locking diff would be overkill ? I was looking at one of Nige’s second hand rebuilt diffs for the front , so should I upgrade to 24 spline half shafts while I’m at it ? I was looking at a Detroit locker for the Salisbury rear axle, are any other upgrades recommended for the Salisbury? I know they’re pretty strong as standard but just thinking while I’m in there what can be improved. 
 All help and advice much appreciated as always cheers Ian 

[bishbosh]

Can't comment on strength upgrades but as far as a locking diff goes I would always prefer one I have total control over - air locker for me. Auto lockers are a misnomer as they are actually auto un-lockers and if they don't unlock they can introduce some interesting handling characteristics. Side slopes spring to mind!

Just my 2p. There will be plenty of other opinions along shortly I am sure!  

[Ex Member]

A Detroit locker in the Salisbury is the way to go.  Very easy install and you won't know it is there other than having lots of traction. add a set of Ashcroft chrome- moly halfshafts and you will never break it.

[ianmayco68]

Cheers both  , which locker in the Salisbury are you on about Red90 a truetrak or this one ?

https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/test.html

Was thinking of Ashcroft shafts and possibly one of hybrid from hells strengthening kits front and back .

[Ex Member]

26 minutes ago, ianmayco68 said:

Cheers both  , which locker in the Salisbury are you on about Red90 a truetrak or this one ?

https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/test.html

Was thinking of Ashcroft shafts and possibly one of hybrid from hells strengthening kits front and back .

That one.  The Detroit Locker.

You don't need an axle strengthening kit for what you are doing.  That is for people that are racing and planning to jump.

[Ed Poore]

For what you're doing Ian a standard diff and some practice will go a long way. I've done some silly things in the past and not managed to break anything but then I have a modicum of mechanical sympathy and I get the impression you do to. I'm with bish and prefer having the option to manually engage when required.

I swear I've posted this recently (perhaps over on defender2.net) but I went a slightly different route with my 300Tdi's Salisbury axle. I was lucky enough to live at the time not too far from Nige and popped down to see him. He showed me the main contributor to the Salisbury's "strength" the cross pin in the centre of the diff. If you see this side-by-side with a 2-pin or 4-pin centre from a Rover diff it's (in the words of Nige) feckin massive. If you change the centre out then you're basically throwing away the main benefit of a Salisbury. I don't know how the auto lockers compare but the only significant option for me was an ARB air locker and they have a number of known faults (plastic cages, seals that wear out if you don't use them often enough) as well as not being as strong as the original Salisbury centre. They're also becoming more difficult to source both the diffs and the spares for them - I think Nige has now manufactured a metal version of the plastic carrier and has them in stock.

Nige proposed swapping out the rear axle for a P38/Wolf Short Nose variant because then I could utilise Ashcroft's air-locker which is regarded to be one of the best lockers for a Land Rover axle out there. Despite swapping out the rear axle (and giving the Salisbury away to a friend - OK I owed him for a cambelt kit) it still worked out cheaper despite going for an "Ultimate Super-doopa Spec build". Along with the build I put in HD half-shafts and HD drive flanges both from Ashcrofts, which I know moves the weak point (well mine turned out to be the crank shaft !).

The Salisbury casing might technically be slightly stronger than a Rover unit but unless you're regularly overloaded (by overloaded I mean several tonnes over) or drive like a loonatic off-road then you've got nothing to worry about. In fact you're probably going to see more of a benefit of swapping to the Rover diff pumpkin because it's not as substantial as the Salisbury unit and you gain some ground clearance that way. I'm running a diff guard on the front after installing the Ashlocker (had one lying around and thought I'd best protect my new toy) but nothing on the rear. I don't (usually) drive like a prat off-road and have never had an issue with clouting things to the point of doing damage.

What am I saying in this long winded post? Well swapping the axle out may be an option, it will open up the option of an air-locker or LSD depending on what way you want to go. Equally I think the parts are more readily available (i.e. Ashcrofts) than alternatives for the Salisbury. Having said all that I've never failed in the scenarios you've described with a bog standard Salisbury, but going up to the Highlands stalking out on our land there have definitely been situations where a locker (or three) have been required but that's some stupid terrain.

Rather than keeping the vehicle off the road longer and spending time rebuilding it why not just use it and practice? Driver ability goes a lot further than all the tricked out toys. Having said all that having a locker does allow you to creep over obstacles rather than rely on momentum to get you through. To the point it can take some of the fun out of it but you can sit there smug crawling through things people have gone over the handlebars of their quads on (@darthdicky) 

[ianmayco68]

Cheers Ed , lots of info there , the plan was have both diffs rebuilt and thought while that was being done would a locker or lsd be worth fitting , also was looking at some of Nige’s rather reasonably priced refurbed units mainly for the front diff . As it’s a daily driver which means I do 150/200 mile a week to and from work with occasional off road use I was leaning more towards an atb or lsd but I’m no expert , I’ve noticed Nige is at 4x4expo at Stafford show ground this Sunday which is about 5 mile from me so I think a trip there and a chat might be in order , but I get what your saying about practice all the toys won’t make you good and I imagine takes away the fun .

cheers Ian 

[Ed Poore]

If you're only 5 miles from it I'd say go and have a chat with it (although be wary of your monies because he tends to offer show deals ).

Bear in mind that ATBs / LSDs are (usually) reactive not proactive, i.e. they respond to loss of traction. You can't get them (unless you have a more advanced unit like in the modern LRs) to lock up in anticipation which is the main reason I went locker not auto. Personally I've not driven a basic (i.e. Defender) with an auto locker so don't know how they behave first hand. The L322 I had did take some of the fun out of things - it was simply right foot to the floor if you wanted to get there quicker or burst a tyre, it quite literally took care of everything else.

One other point not highlighted might be the additional cost associated with an air locker (i.e. the compressor etc). I kept mine relatively cheap by going down the route of an AC compressor re-purposed for on-board air (think the whole setup came in under £100). Which ever route you go you get the added benefit of having an on-board air supply for pumping tyres, etc. My setup has a dinky little P38 air tank behind the rear wheel and a normal PCL fitting in the boot for running air tools etc. The output from the AC compressor is frankly ridiculous and is more than enough to run my 50 R-Tech plasma cutter. In fact the compressor keeps cutting in and out because the plasma doesn't use the air quickly enough, and this is running through piddly little 6mm OD pipes.

[FridgeFreezer]

Personally I like lockers as they're doing nothing different when you don't need them and they're 100% locked when you want them, no change in behaviour, no extra wear day-to-day.

You can lock them before you hit the nasty stuff, you can disengage them any time.

A £5 tyre compressor will run them as they don't need any volume of air, just a little pressure - you could even use your spare tyre as an air reservoir. Mine run on engine vacuum so no compressor needed

[ianmayco68]

I had considered air and compressors as I was planning to fit one in the rear , because if I get a flat while fishing in the middle of nowhere I can pump it up and get to flat ground to change it , and yes I know I could buy a foot pump but I getting old and lazy and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s if you can make life easy bloody do it 😁. There’s something else I’ve been looking for that someone might be able to help is a jacking pad , to put under the wheel jack on soft ground, like what they use under the hydraulic legs on cranes .

[Ed Poore]

51 minutes ago, ianmayco68 said:

There’s something else I’ve been looking for that someone might be able to help is a jacking pad , to put under the wheel jack on soft ground, like what they use under the hydraulic legs on cranes .

Plank of wood... 

I'd look into something that has multiple purposes and doesn't occupy much space if it's an everyday runaround because you'll soon get fed up of it getting in the way. I must say that in all my years of offroading I've not actually needed to carry such a thing. Perhaps I've been lucky but there's always been a convenient rock or branch or something lying nearby. Or found harder ground...

[FridgeFreezer]

The T-Max twin air compressors and their clones are cheap and work well, @miketomcat did Ladoga with a borrowed air locker and a cheap compressor on a manual switch if memory serves - no tank or pressure switch etc., just run the compressor for a couple of seconds to lock the diff and switch it off again.

Air suspension tanks from luxury cars are cheap & compact - I have a BMW X5 tank under my seat as a vacuum reservoir, cost me ~£15 delivered.

[Ed Poore]

You've just reminded me! I need to chop off the air tank from my P38 for @miketomcat.

For reference they fit behind the rear wheels of a 110 really neatly.

[miketomcat]

As fridge says I had a Halfords tyre pump connected to an old airlift gauge and release valve then straight to the locker. We just pumped it up to around 20psi from memory (enough to lock the diff) then released the pressure when not required. @Ed Poore no panic I've got no shortage of other things to do at the moment.

Mike

[Stellaghost]

20 hours ago, ianmayco68 said:

 😁There’s something else I’ve been looking for that someone might be able to help is a jacking pad , to put under the wheel jack on soft ground, like what they use under the hydraulic legs on cranes .

What size do you need I have some 6mm aluminium chequer plate  I could cut to size if that's any help could double it up with a section cut out if it's for a high lift Jack regards Stephen

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Stellaghost
Addition

[Ed Poore]

@miketomcat - more just remembering to take it off before the rest of the vehicle is scrapped!

[ianmayco68]

Cheers all , most people seem to put there faith in air lockers so need to do some thinking and I’m presuming that if I go down the air locker route then a P38 rear axle needs to be sourced , or would you change both to P38 axles ? Then I would imagine that the props would need to be changed , for which ones ? which isn’t a problem as I was already planning on a couple of Gwyn Lewis ones anyway . I would imagine this route would be easier as I can source rebuild the axles at my own pace . 
Cheers Stephen I’ll have a think about it , I have got a crane pad but it’s a bit big I’ll put a pic up .

 Does anyone know to any axles for sale ? 😁

[Ed Poore]

You don't want actual P38 axles (which is a shame cause I have two crusty casings) as the pumpkin is on the wrong side.

You want a casing and diff off a Td5 or newer 110 with the so called P38/Wolf short nose diff in it. I think the only thing you'll need afterwards is a slightly longer prop but certainly Gwyn Lewis will have what you need. I just phoned him up said what my setup was and he shipped the correct prop down for me.

They're not that difficult to source, at least weren't when I looked. Might be worth chucking up a wanted ad. I think I sourced mine from an ad on defender2.net.

[ianmayco68]

So a 110 puma axle would do , and leave the front as is and have it rebuilt? 

[Ed Poore]

Yup

[ianmayco68]

Hi all thank you all very much for the help and guidance , had a good chat with Nige at the show today and he recommended as Ed said get rid of the Salisbury axle and fit a short nose td5 rear axle then have them rebuilt , he said I'd benefit more from ATB's rather than lockers and said they where very under rated . So the plan is ATB's and Ashcroft shaft's so if anyone knows of a 110 TD5 short nose axle for sale I'm interested and I should then have a rear Salisbury axle with disc conversion for sale , but I will put a wanted add in the wanted section shortly .

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, ianmayco68 said:

Hi all thank you all very much for the help and guidance , had a good chat with Nige at the show today and he recommended as Ed said get rid of the Salisbury axle and fit a short nose td5 rear axle then have them rebuilt , he said I'd benefit more from ATB's rather than lockers and said they where very under rated . So the plan is ATB's and Ashcroft shaft's so if anyone knows of a 110 TD5 short nose axle for sale I'm interested and I should then have a rear Salisbury axle with disc conversion for sale , but I will put a wanted add in the wanted section shortly .

Sorry, not read every reply. But surely getting rid of the Salisbury is just an expensive way of ultimately ending up with an inferior axle? The only advantage the Rover axle has is a smaller casing and a bit more clearance. But I doubt this is really going to be an issue in the real world unless doing something very specific. And may the LR axle is easier to work on with better parts supply.

 

But a sorted Salisbury is likely to cost you nothing to maintain, so probably still cheaper. Unless I'm mistaken, the only reason LR stopped using them was down to licensing costs from Dana. As the Salisbury is basically a Dana 60 centre.

I would personally give a thumbs up to ATB's, but with a Salisbury it is just so easy to fit a Detroit and in a 110 I suspect it would work very very well. And unless you are doing some pretty serious stuff, you'd likely be fine with an open diff in the front. With a Detroit in the rear you'll always be able to spin at least 3 wheels off road. 

I do think the Salisbury is a little unloved in the LR world these days, probably because LR don't really support it very well and there is more money to made beefing up the Rover axles in the aftermarket.

Head over to the USA though and you'll find Dana 60's on Dodge, Ford and GM trucks. And is a common axle swap on many Jeeps. Mopar even offered a kit to fit Dana 60's to the 2005-2018 Jeep JK's. Think they rated them to 40" tyres with lockers.

[ianmayco68]

From what I understand from Nige and other's LR did as usual make the Salisbury on the cheap , as it's a variant of the Dana 60 , and the strength lies in the huge cross pin in the diff so when you remove this and fit a locker you remove the strength ending up with an axle no stronger than anything else and also the parts are expensive to replace . So if you take a short nose diff rover axle fit a ATB or locker have it pegged couple in some Ashcroft shafts you end up with something stronger or as strong as a Salisbury , I'm no expert as I asked the question in the first place but this is what I understand the info to mean that I've been given but I may be wrong .

[reb78]

So apart from potentially weakening it, what are the other disadvantages of a Detroit in a Salisbury?

Like Ian, I have a Salisbury axle and keep half wondering about lockers as the 110 is doing more off road these days than it used to. Having said that, one minute mine is in a muddy field and then the other it is doing 300 miles on the motorway at a decent speed. I really cant be bothered with axle changes to be honest hence the interest in potential upgrades to my current rear axle.

[Ed Poore]

I don't know about ATBs but generally availability of stuff for Salisburys isn't as good and is more expensive.

Locker wise the only practical option for a Salisbury is an ARB and there are known weaknesses with those and the Ashcroft unit is considered much stronger overall. Some have been "rectified" as I mentioned in a previous post. One of the weaknesses I remember was that there's a plastic cage as part of, I think, the locking mechanism. This can melt and reasonably often breaks. I think when I had my first locker built by Nige he'd just finished making a batch or was looking into making a batch of metal versions.

The other which is more of an issue is that the air seal setup has a tendency to perish in the ARB, I can't remember if it's because it's basically not used a whole lot and thus sits idle. With the Ashlocker its setup the other way around so that the seal is always being "stimulated" and thus doesn't harden up as readily. Hopefully Nige can correct me if I've remembered this wrong.

But Ian is right, although the same basic blocks as a Dana it's not as strong. By the time and money you've spent getting it to a similar standard you can sort out the weaknesses in the short nose axle.

Fundamentally the main driver is, at least in the UK, parts availability. For the vast majority of people they're not going to get close to breaking the standard LR one anyway.