Poor performance 110 200tdi

[Jocklandjohn]

Been wrestling with this for ages and after the last few weeks nonsense I need to get to the root of whatever is wrong.

Engine (200tdi with maybe 200k on it, overhauled 60k ago by LR expert) is in good nick and a very good runner, extremely smooth, starts every time, doesn't use oil or water, I give it regular oil changes, no mad running it, usually a more relaxed 55mph or up to 60mph if I'm feeling racy. Its got a Turner performance head, deeper intercooler, hybrid turbo, and also had fitted a 1.222 gearset which I was assured would be a good option with the other modifications as I was finding the standard gearing was a bit harsh. Lift pump replaced fairly recently, FIP fully overhauled a couple of years ago (by LR expert), injectors also regularly pulled and serviced.

Goes great, will cruise smoothly and pulls fairly well on the flat (its got a bit of extra weight with my hard-side camper conversion and intternal sink/storage stuff but nothing silly, probably about the weight of a roof rack and roof tent) and can get to 70mph if I want to floor it, but hit a hill and its change down to 4th, then 3rd when its moderately steeper and I usually end up on anything really steep in 2nd @ 30mph. I often get overtaken when I'm going uphill by other 110's pulling trailers! I seem to have no midrange power/torque. I've driven a 300tdi CSW several times when working, with a bunch of folks and stuff in it, and it went like a train, on the flat it was easy to get to 75mph and up hills in 4th fully laden so I have a good idea of what is apparently 'normal'!

For those of you who know it, I was coming back from working over in Aberdeenshire last night and had to go up the rather steep (understatement!) hill at Corgarff heading towards Tomintoul, and took a good run at it in 4th, down to 3rd, then 2nd and finally ended up in 1st and basically stopped. So it was into low range and that was fine so I got to the top, albeit slowly. I can make lots of black smoke but not get much ooomph!

Any suggestions? Its getting embarassing being so slow on a slope. FIP timing out? Gearing too high for weight? Lift pump going awol again? Something else?

[Bowie69]

What tyres are you running?   

Even with that known, still sounds like something is up mechanically...

[Jocklandjohn]

Fairly modest 235/85/16 so nothing silly.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

Just amended that previous post - 235/85's not 75.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Bowie69]

Yep, so something wrong, bring on the TDI experts 😛 

[Jocklandjohn]

It wasn't running great but had a leaky fuel pump and so pump was overhauled but still running poorly afterwards, and pump guys checked timing belt/timing and it was ok but then it turned out pump service had gone wrong and fuel delivery was all over the place, so pump was taken off and totally overhauled (different place, but a proper Bosch agent and LR expert especially 200/300tdi engines) and refitted and timing belt checked again and was apparently ok. I've replaced hoses, checked boost and all the stuff a non-expert like me can do but its still not running like it should.

 

[monkie]

Thinking logically it has to be to with either fuel, air or compression. You mention you have had the injection pump serviced and checked over, what about fuel from the tank to FIP (ie lift pump)? Do you know what is happening in terms of boost pressure when under oad? What about valve clearances? Could a pushrod be bent? Have you done a compression test? 

[Jocklandjohn]

Not sure about fuel to FIP, but I assume all is ok, I can pull fuel through easily enough when changing fuel filter (replaced a few weeks ago), and when fitting the injectors at last service I turned it over before nipping up and all seemed ok. I fitted a new tank last year and blew through the fuel line and it didn;t appear to be blocked.

Valves I do msyself regularly and all should be within spec.

Boost pressure - I have a gauge and can see it rise under revs and goes up to just below 1.2max. Seems to go up and down as appropriate under/off load.

EGT gauge is 100 or so at at idle 300-400 as I cruise along, rising to 600 or so as I give it welly, or if its too high a gear for road conditions it can go up to nearer 700 so I change down and can see EGT dropping massively to 500 or so.

Have not done a compression test.

I changed the head myself (replaced gasket, and did gaskets on manifolds as well, and the turbo one as I recall) and pushrods were all fine at that point and not had anything since that might have bent one.

I have a snorkel (fitted for a desert jaunt) but never wade, and in case that was restrictive I fitted a t-piece into the air pipes with another intake to ensure there's sufficient air getting in.

I'm hoping to get a local independent LR expert to have a nosy around it, but beofre that I just wanted to eliminate some things I may have missed before I let him have a look at it, hence my query here.

Would a take-off for a diesel heater affect diesel 'draw' through the fuel line or are they on non-return valves of some kind?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

Also lift pumps - I've had several on, seems I'm not alone in having them fail if the posts on here have been anything to go by. My last one failed away from home and I needed AA recovery; I put a new one on (Delphi) and now carry a spare. 

[Peaklander]

I seem to remember another question like this and the cause was eventually found to be a slipping clutch. Could it be that? Probably not but its just a thought. 

[Jocklandjohn]

Hmm never thought of that! Yikes- I assume I'd smell that though? I assume also that would affect low range too though (?) which in my case seems fine (but with same amount of black smoke as I get in high range if I'm not careful with my right foot)

[Gazzar]

My TDI is similar spec to yours. Turner head, Skoda intercooler, and tweaked IP.

It's a series, so gearing is lower, but if you are in third gear that's irrelevant.

With a couple of ton on the trailer I can maintain momentum at thirty up a local steep hill, and probably go faster if it wasn't a thirty zone, but there'd be anti social amounts of smoke.

You've got an air supply issue, or a timing issue, not fuel, I reckon.

For an experiment take off everything before the turbo and try your hill again. Pick a day when it's just stopped raining, the air should be fairly clean and dry. This will increase wear on your engine.

[Jocklandjohn]

11 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

My TDI is similar spec to yours. Turner head, Skoda intercooler, and tweaked IP.

It's a series, so gearing is lower, but if you are in third gear that's irrelevant.

With a couple of ton on the trailer I can maintain momentum at thirty up a local steep hill, and probably go faster if it wasn't a thirty zone, but there'd be anti social amounts of smoke.

You've got an air supply issue, or a timing issue, not fuel, I reckon.

For an experiment take off everything before the turbo and try your hill again. Pick a day when it's just stopped raining, the air should be fairly clean and dry. This will increase wear on your engine.

Ah one of the 'buggers with a trailer' who regularly overtakes me!

I followed a 110 CSW fully laden AND towing a TAB caravan up a hill last week...well for about 100m. It sailed onwards at 40 or 50mph and I was in 3rd at 30mph and still slowing in no time. Pfft.

My thoughts are leaning towards timing. I think I have enough fuel and air but I'll have a go as you suggest and see what happens with the turbo free-sucking.  Thanks.

[muddy]

You say you can make lots of black smoke, is that thick black 'soot'?

 

Is your boost gauge plumbed into the turbo or the manifold? Its fairly easy to be a tooth out on the timing and have mediocre performance. 

 

 

[cackshifter]

Yes, I would agree with @muddy, it does sound like the cam timing could be off. It's possible to be a tooth out at the crank which is in effect half a tooth at the cam, and is within range of correct FIP setting. It is on 300s anyway. The difference in performance is night and day. To check I think you have to strip it, are you anywhere approaching needing a belt change anyway?

[Jocklandjohn]

50 minutes ago, muddy said:

You say you can make lots of black smoke, is that thick black 'soot'?

 

Is your boost gauge plumbed into the turbo or the manifold? Its fairly easy to be a tooth out on the timing and have mediocre performance. 

 

 

Boost gauge is on a T on the turbo pipe. Black smoke is kind of sooty, off boost its not too bad, maybe a light haze thats virtually invisible so not too terrible until its maybe heading up a slope then it start getting blacker and more profuse but as soon as turbo kicks in it clears and runs cleanly. Coincident with the smoke appearing/clearing I can see EGT going from high/low as boost comes in. When on the flat bowling along at 50-55 its clean and smoke-free (in 5th) but hit a slight slope and I can see the smoke appear (and EGT goes up) as I press foot on pedal, then I need to change down to 4th and smoke clears, EGT drops and van maintains speed.

I had a Fiat Panda years ago (in my youth) from new that got its first full service and then ran like a dog. Took it back several times to dealer to get it looked at with no joy. It was running so badly I was stopped on one occasion by a gust of wind in Glencoe on a winter night, literally stopped me dead on a slight hill! And had to abandon a trip over a high hill road because I just could not get the car up the slope. Eventually took it to a good local independent mechanic who took it apart and found the timing out a tooth, (thank you Fiat dealer!) and cured it. I left the garage with the front wheels skidding as it was producing so much power (!) compared to its previous strangled plodding!  

My 110's current running 'feels' similar to that experience, but my timing belt was changed and timing checked twice,  by LR independent garage who removed and refitted my FIP and then later by the Bosch pump folks when they tried to resolve even worse running problems after their pump overhaul. (that turned out to be a failure of the fuel pin that runs against the 'boost' pin, and which had jammed in the out position when they ran the pump test after its full overhaul.) That pin failure made it even worse but to be honest it was exhibiting the same poor performance as i'm experiencing now so I'm pretty sure that pump issue wasn't the cause. 

So, something else appears to be going on. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

3 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Yes, I would agree with @muddy, it does sound like the cam timing could be off. It's possible to be a tooth out at the crank which is in effect half a tooth at the cam, and is within range of correct FIP setting. It is on 300s anyway. The difference in performance is night and day. To check I think you have to strip it, are you anywhere approaching needing a belt change anyway?

Belt was done a couple of years back when pump was overhauled (see post above), engine is on 250K + so I ensure belt renewals at correct intervals, either time/mileage.

But if needing to go in and look at timing its worth my while getting it checked, new belt fitted and the other bits and pieces checked over at same time, so I've got no problems having it all done. 

[cackshifter]

I don't think you have the same problem with the 200, but it is really hard to see the marks properly with the radiator in place on a 300; it is for me anyway, and it was for the numpty at Liveridge's that set mine wrongly. The  other thing that might be worth a check is the injection timing, ideally with a dial gauge at the back of the pump, as maybe the pulley isn't set correctly. If you think either is the problem it will have to be checked carefully - some places when changing the belts just mark everything up with what has gone before assuming it is OK,  and then that perpetuates any error that was present.

[Jocklandjohn]

I've spoken to a local lad whom I know well, who rebuilds LR's (his whole family has them, varying from RR's to 90's including exotic 110 hybrids and other confections with all manner of engines) and they run an LR spares business & small garage service. He's very knowledgeable and has another lad working with him who is equally adept with 200/300tdi's and previous iterations of LR engine so I'm hoping he can find a gap for me in the next few weeks and he can start with a timing belt change and check FIP timing, and then see what happens.

Thanks for the help so far chaps. I'll report back on outcome at some point!

[Eightpot]

Wildcard here (my first thoughts would be set up timing meticulously) - I had a baffling problem with my 200 slowing down uphill, sometimes conking out, then getting back to normal after restarting.  After stripping the entire fuel system several times, I found a small plastic bead from f knows where in the fuel tank had found its way up the pickup pipe.  Under max throttle up hill, the filter housing would empty as couldn't replenish itself quickly enough.   As a quick test you could backflush the fuel line with compressed air.

[Jocklandjohn]

21 minutes ago, Eightpot said:

Wildcard here (my first thoughts would be set up timing meticulously) - I had a baffling problem with my 200 slowing down uphill, sometimes conking out, then getting back to normal after restarting.  After stripping the entire fuel system several times, I found a small plastic bead from f knows where in the fuel tank had found its way up the pickup pipe.  Under max throttle up hill, the filter housing would empty as couldn't replenish itself quickly enough.   As a quick test you could backflush the fuel line with compressed air.

Good call and worth a look when its apart I think.  Its not an occasional thing though, its very consistent, and entirely predictable - show it a slope and it struggles. Its going to be interesting to see what the expert figures out. Its so bad I'd expect someone who really knows what they're doing to rule out various factors and at least narrow down the possible causes.

[Jocklandjohn]

Just one other observation - all the time its been poorly running, its never ever failed the smoke test on the MOT, nor even come close to doing so, always been judged as very well within the limits. FWIW!

[monkie]

From what you say, this is a problem that just manifests itself under load. The MOT tests are done under no load so don't really have any bearing on what ever is going on in my opinion.

Getting it to someone who knows the tdi engines is a good idea. I think it would be wise first to conduct some simple tests to help your mechanic out. I would suggest the following if your able to:

• Remove your raised air intake to rule out any restriction that could be caused by that.
• Remove the rocker cover and check the rocker cearances.
• Take the rocker shaft off so you can inspect each push rod (roll them on a flat surface such as a sheet of glass to check they are straight).
• Check that you are getting fuel from the lift pump (there are some topics on here about this if you search - IIRC hand priming alone doesn't neccessarily verify the lift pump is working as it should do)
• Double check your intercooler hoses that the are on right and not causing a restriction
• I assume the filters (air and fuel) are clean.

Thats a good start to rule out the simple stuff to allow your mechanic to concentrate elsewhere. I think a compression test would be a good start as an indication to general engine health.

[Maverik]

I'd wager, the combined knowledge of this forum would be able to beat a fair few experts.

[Jocklandjohn]

18 minutes ago, monkie said:

From what you say, this is a problem that just manifests itself under load. The MOT tests are done under no load so don't really have any bearing on what ever is going on in my opinion.

Getting it to someone who knows the tdi engines is a good idea. I think it would be wise first to conduct some simple tests to help your mechanic out. I would suggest the following if your able to:

• Remove your raised air intake to rule out any restriction that could be caused by that.
• Remove the rocker cover and check the rocker cearances.
• Take the rocker shaft off so you can inspect each push rod (roll them on a flat surface such as a sheet of glass to check they are straight).
• Check that you are getting fuel from the lift pump (there are some topics on here about this if you search - IIRC hand priming alone doesn't neccessarily verify the lift pump is working as it should do)
• Double check your intercooler hoses that the are on right and not causing a restriction
• I assume the filters (air and fuel) are clean.

Thats a good start to rule out the simple stuff to allow your mechanic to concentrate elsewhere. I think a compression test would be a good start as an indication to general engine health.

Ah ok - I wondered about that.

All good stuff.

I've checked air intake. I was concerned it was the snorkel so checked it out and hoses were clear.

Done valve clearances (I do them regularly)

Not checked push rods (but were ok when I swapped head) but performance was poor before head swap. Can pull and check though.

Did check the lift pump & it was fine (replaced it three years ago), and seemed to be getting plenty fuel at injectors too. But thats worth redoing.

I replaced the intercooler several years ago (Allisport double thick job, but in same space on rh side), and have had it out a couple of times to flush it. Also replaced all the hoses with new silicone ones all over.

Air filter changed two months ago, fuel filter at same time. Oil change last month & filter as well.

 

Its worth going back over some of these though, so I'll get in about that.