Suspension oddness but may have a simple solution

[Jocklandjohn]

I upgraded my springs and shocks ten years ago, fitting plain old Armstrong OE dampers and proper LR springs as are fitted as standard - front white/white etc.

Its been splendid, rides beautifully and with air bags in the rear very adaptable.

Shocks were well past their best so I replaced them last week. I wanted the same Armstrongs again but none to be found anywhere so instead got a set of Monroe Gas Adventure.

It is now very bouncy! The rears were done first and I could feel considerably more movement, but when I changed the fronts its become a bit disconcerting because eg where before I could go over the speed bump with a gentle whuffle (at modest speed, nothing silly) I'm now actually hitting the bumpstops at the front with an obvious clunk.

Would this suggest that the springs are also past their best?

 

[Eightpot]

Just a thought, but did you prime the shocks before fitting to work the bubbles out?

[Jocklandjohn]

I did give them several pull/push cycles but not for very long. Initial 'easy' movement got a good bit more resistence with a few cycles. Always puzzled me that, I'd assume that the action of actually 'working' on the vehicle would achieve the same?

The ride feels very nice I must say, it doesn't feel too wallowy on corners, its just considerably easier to whack the bump stops - I was doing 15mph off a speed 'table' with a fairly insignificant ramp-off tonight and it was enough to clip the stops. Never ever experienced that in ten years with the Armstrongs doing the same thing on that table. Checked the Monroe website too and I have the correct spec for the vehicle. (110, 1989, no winch etc).

2 hours ago, Eightpot said:

Just a thought, but did you prime the shocks before fitting to work the bubbles out?

 

[missingsid]

Dumb question, but ate you sure it is hitting the stops?

You say you changed as the shocks were old, if so they would be soft. New ones will be stiffer so it could just be the shock stopping the movement particularly if the new make is a stiffer rate?

[Jocklandjohn]

Pretty sure its the stops - I can feel the whack and the axle shimmies a bit which I can feel in the steering. All the bushes etc are fine, relatively recent (greasable) track rod ends installed and well greased (last week).

Previously the whole front end would go down and gently slow then rebound (with the Armstrongs) but now it goes down more easily and not as progressively and 'thumps'. I'd not expect new shocks to have (apparently) so little progressive damping.

I can recall fitting the Armstrongs and compressing them to get them inside the springs and the self-extension was very strong to the point where it was a struggle compressing them again to get the bushes in, when they were actually inside the springs. The Monroes were really easy to compress and it was signficantly and noticeaby less bother.

2 hours ago, missingsid said:

Dumb question, but ate you sure it is hitting the stops?

You say you changed as the shocks were old, if so they would be soft. New ones will be stiffer so it could just be the shock stopping the movement particularly if the new make is a stiffer rate?

 

[missingsid]

23 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Pretty sure its the stops - I can feel the whack and the axle shimmies a bit which I can feel in the steering. All the bushes etc are fine, relatively recent (greasable) track rod ends installed and well greased (last week).

Previously the whole front end would go down and gently slow then rebound (with the Armstrongs) but now it goes down more easily and not as progressively and 'thumps'. I'd not expect new shocks to have (apparently) so little progressive damping.

I can recall fitting the Armstrongs and compressing them to get them inside the springs and the self-extension was very strong to the point where it was a struggle compressing them again to get the bushes in, when they were actually inside the springs. The Monroes were really easy to compress and it was signficantly and noticeaby less bother.

 

Fair enough very odd for new shocks!

[Jocklandjohn]

2 hours ago, missingsid said:

Dumb question, but ate you sure it is hitting the stops?

You say you changed as the shocks were old, if so they would be soft. New ones will be stiffer so it could just be the shock stopping the movement particularly if the new make is a stiffer rate?

Mind you it might be worth my putting some paint on the stop and seeing if it shows up on the axle, just in case you're correct and I'm way off the mark!

[missingsid]

It would be useful if someone with shock knowledge came along not just my thoughts as I am wondering if it is just poor valve design in the new shocks making them very stiff.

[TSD]

Coincidentally, this week I replaced a set of OME shocks with Monroe 4x4 adventure.

The OME still work perfectly after 250k miles, but the bushes were 'a bit tired' to say the least, and stones have taken their toll on the rear shock bodies.

The OME were way to stiff for a SWB Ibex, but I've never bothered enough to swap them out before. The Monroe are very soft, probably softer than the Boge one's I fitted to another vehicle at the same time. They do extend very slowly/lightly compared to the OMEs.

Ride quality is very much improved, and I've not noticed it hitting the bump stops any more than usual. Of course, a SWB Ibex is a very different thing to a LWB Land Rover, as there's no overhangs, all the weight is between the wheels. I'd imagine they would seem very soft inded on a 110.

Edited November 5, 2021 by TSD
can't type

[reb78]

Is it possible the new shocks are wrong and the shocks are bottoming out? Might be worth putting them side by side with the old ones and extending them/checking the lengths etc?

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, TSD said:

Coincidentally, this week I replaced a set of OME shocks with Monroe 4x4 adventure.

The OME still work perfectly after 250k miles, but the bushes were 'a bit tired' to say the least, and stones have taken their toll on the rear shock bodies.

The OME were way to stiff for a SWB Ibex, but I've never bothered enough to swap them out before. The Monroe are very soft, probably softer than the Boge one's I fitted to another vehicle at the same time. They do extend very slowly/lightly compared to the OMEs.

Ride quality is very much improved, and I've not noticed it hitting the bump stops any more than usual. Of course, a SWB Ibex is a very different thing to a LWB Land Rover, as there's no overhangs, all the weight is between the wheels. I'd imagine they would seem very soft inded on a 110.

Thanks, thats my conclusion - ride quality is very nice, including cornering but they seem to not handle the weight-loading when it happens with any sort of progression/control.

 

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

Is it possible the new shocks are wrong and the shocks are bottoming out? Might be worth putting them side by side with the old ones and extending them/checking the lengths etc?

They'd need to have been sent from the factory in the wrong boxes (not impossible) as they matched the Monroe website listing which is 110 specific

Sadly the old shocks went in the bin and are gone.

I think I might put some chalk/paint on the bump stop and see if it gets onto the axle - if not then you're right the shock is bottoming out (which is odd, but possible).

[landroversforever]

Are they the right way up? 

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

Are they the right way up? 

Yes! Although they did come out of the box the wrong end up, so I had to turn the Land Rover upside down to fit them, but now that they're on and I've turned the van back round I can see its all looking ok.  🙂

Just inspected the bump check (lower) and there's a fresh mark on the slight oily patch that was there, with the corresponding oily residue on the rubber above on the bump stop. So definitely hitting. And lying there and pulling on the van I can see it comes down pretty easily so with the vehicle front end weight coming down it looks very likely to hit. Current clearance is just under 2 inches between rubber and lower steel check on the axle, but I've no idea how that compares to 'normal'.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

Ok just found this, which is curious indeed as these are Monroe Gas Adventure M/D6628 & 6629 same as mine, so I'm not alone:

[uninformed]

Replacement Shocks are valved or should be to the vehicle. Given the long run of the 110 and it’s changes to spring rates, levelled and non levelled etc that could be the start of things… 

On top of that you have companies different approach to the problem. Example, Bilstein have high (harsh) low speed bump valving typically and this is because they use a digressive piston. 
 

Some shocks are just valved carp to the vehicle, or they are valved with a spring rate in mind (sometimes other than factory fitted rate)

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by uninformed

[Jocklandjohn]

11 hours ago, uninformed said:

Replacement Shocks are valved or should be to the vehicle. Given the long run of the 110 and it’s changes to spring rates, levelled and non levelled etc that could be the start of things… 

On top of that you have companies different approach to the problem. Example, Bilstein have high (harsh) low speed bump valving typically and this is because they use a digressive piston. 
 

Some shocks are just valved carp to the vehicle, or they are valved with a spring rate in mind (sometimes other than factory fitted rate)

 

Yes they definitley feel as if they need a much stiffer spring to take some of the sting out of things. Hmm.  I've contacted the supplier so am interested to see what they say.

[uninformed]

14 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Yes they definitley feel as if they need a much stiffer spring to take some of the sting out of things. Hmm.  I've contacted the supplier so am interested to see what they say.

I need to correct myself regarding the Bilstein comment, they do have high low speed bump valving and they do usually have a digressive piston but the two are not related. It’s just how Bilstein like to do things. Low speed bump controls unsprung mass. It also helps control roll a little. Bilsteins handle well but suffer ride quality (imo) at the expense. No matter the brand it is a compromise 

 

back to your issue. Generally speaking the higher the spring rate the lower the bump valving would or can be. But again lots of variables and different ideas from different shock manufacturers. 

[Jocklandjohn]

Yes, thanks. Aware its always a trade-off and previous experience with (frankly terrifying*) off-brand springs convinced me to stick to quality known entities, thus last time I renewed the shocks/springs I went for Land Rover original fitment fronts and rear springs, correctly colour-coded, and Armstrong shocks as would have been fitted originally.

It was just as the vendor advised, very smooh ride, no wallowing on corners and with the AirLift bags in rear I could add some stiffness for when I was carrying a load of stuff. The 110 doesn't get hammered and no high-speed diving about off-road, but it does have to go on some really rough forest and hill tracks but usually slow and careful, and despite some big dips and whacks it never ever bottomed out. No Armstrongs currently available so the closest I could find was Monroes, correct fitment according to their website, but soft as cottage cheese and hitting the bump stops with even a modest on-road bump.

Sigh!

 

*Took the 110 to local independent LR mechanic to confirm my feelings they were very bad and he refused to let me drive home as he judged them so dangerous! He loaned me some old springs to install until I got the danergous ones swapped, the vendor assuring me ("nobody has ever complained about them before") but sent me another set the same as replacement. Which were exactly like the previous ones, lethal. I ended up getting the LR ones and it was all good.

[Jocklandjohn]

Expert opinion from LR guru is that my springs may be past their sell by date and sagging, which is likely the cause of the bump stops hitting at front.

Since I fitted the springs/shocks and Airlift bags the van's weight has increased due to the addition of the lifting roof, fridge and water tank so thats not helped matters.

So today I went to the weighbridge to get a more acccurate idea of its weight and its currently sitting at 2700KG with 1/2 tank fuel, 1/2 tank water. Assuming I add two adults, dog, gear, more fuel/water, filling the fridge and some clothes & gear, and occasionally two bikes on a towball rack it'll be up near 3000kg I expect. The VIN plate states 3050KG which I assume is the GVW and I'm rarely likely to get near that.

I have the Salisbury rear axle (it was Vodafone utility vehicle) so that's well up to the task at the back.

Can anyone give me some idea of what spring weights you're running on a 110 with that sort of load? 

 

[Jocklandjohn]

Ok, any comments on this gratefully received before I commit to buying new front springs.

I measured the compressed front springs as they are currently on the van. They're Land Rover OE parts - NRC 8044 white/white on driver side and NRC8045 yellow/yellow on passenger side.

White/white is 384mm free length and in current compressed state 255mm, and the yellow/yellow is 368mm free length and 280mm compressed. Bump stop clearance (standard fitment) is 45mm. These are apparently progressive front springs so 115/215Lbs/In load rating. WIth the Monroe shocks I'm now hitting the bump stops very easily on a small bump/drop.

Rear end is non-levelled NRC6389 red/red on driver side and NRC6904 red/green on passenger side. These are 330Lbs/In rating. Free length of red/red is 407mm and in current compresssed state 270mm, red/green free length is 395mm and compressed state 280mm. Bump stop clearance is 75mm. I dont hit the bump stops when driving off the same 'drop' as the front. I have AirLift airbags fitted but only running 8psi so not 'pumped up'.

With this current setup the vehicle sits level front-to-back and side-to-side, the rear is not sitting 'up' as in 'normal' 110's I've seen, presumably because of the additional weight it carries (weighbridge result on Friday was 2700Kg)

Do these figures for compressed spring state and bump stop clearance suggest knackered and sagging front springs (or are these shocks really so soft they cant cope with the 'bounce')?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Peaklander]

Hi, I have a 110 300TDI, station wagon but only two seats now (in the front). I have an Alucab lifting roof and its fitted with a few lockers and supports for camping stuff and is fairly full when we travel. However I don't have a big fixed water tank (travel with 20-30 litres) and just the normal fuel tank. We do cary plenty of food etc, toilet, heater, fridge, couple of 907 gas bottles etc etc.  I do carry a box on top (with a 90 Hannibal rack) but there's nothing particularly heavy in it.

My rear springs are RKB101111 Purple/Brown progressives (no Boge self leveller now).  At the front they are BR 3626 yellow/yellow nearside and BR 3624 white/white offside. It sits up at the back a little bit but it's not much.

I don't know my laden weight, haven't done any very rough off road but some narrow, gravel, partially washed-out stuff and it seems to cope nicely. The rest has been tarmac. This might not be a totally like-for-like comparison, however I don't think I have ever hit the bump stops.

[Jocklandjohn]

Thanks Peaklander - are those front springs the Bearmach equivalents of LR parts?

The rears you mention were more recent 110 fitments afaik, but progressives and going beyond the capacity of the ones I have.

What shocks are you using? I'm a bit suspicious that I should have no problems with Armstrongs controlling the suspension (even though well rusted and knackered) and then I change to Monroes and start hitting the bumpstops.

So I'm curious how the compressed length on mine compares to others with similar weight of vehicle.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[western]

Quote

 RKB101111 Purple/Brown progressives

those are Td5 110 rear springs.

[Jocklandjohn]

Just now, western said:

those are Td5 110 rear springs.

Thanks Ralph - you've confirmed what I've just this minute figured out from searching. I'm *guessing* from comments I've read on forums that they behave similarly to standard 110 rears until you get a heavier load, and where the standards start to run out of steam the progressives can support an additional bit of loading.

[Badger110]

I can measure mine in the morning, it's a 2011 110 USW if that helps?

 Standard springs with OME shocks.