P38 engine swap ideas/experience. TDV8 maybe?

[Simon_CSK]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:09 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

 

The P38 that donated its 4.6 to our ambulance claimed nearly 24mpg on the drive home, which surprised me, but even in the ambulance it can happily hit 19mpg on a motorway run and that's not hanging around behind trucks.

The best I got out of my 4.6 P38 on a run from Glasgow to London was 23 and the computer just tipped it when I stopped for a fill up at Watford Gap. The average I get with my TDV8 sport is 21 and in the current climate I have a couple of Mini Cooper S's which are not a great deal better than the sport the only saving grace is the price difference between petrol and diesel  and when on a short run I can get up to 30mpg.

Consider putting LPG on the P38 best of both worlds.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I have considered LPG a number of times. I like the idea. Although I think it is harder to buy these days. 
 

But my main issue is where to put the tank. I don’t want it in the boot. Nor lose the spare. And I’d not want a tiny tank with no real range. I’ve never been able to figure out how it would work to solve all these issues. 

[elbekko]

You can relocate the spare, and have a tank in there. Not a huge range though, I get ~350km out of my tank in the spare wheel well.

[Bowie69]

This will give you an idea of coverage:

https://www.autogas.app/

 

 

[elbekko]

43 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

This will give you an idea of coverage:

https://www.autogas.app/

 

 

https://www.mylpg.eu/ as well.

[Simon_CSK]

4 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I have considered LPG a number of times. I like the idea. Although I think it is harder to buy these days. 
 

But my main issue is where to put the tank. I don’t want it in the boot. Nor lose the spare. And I’d not want a tiny tank with no real range. I’ve never been able to figure out how it would work to solve all these issues. 

When you know where to look and what you are looking for it is amazing just how many outlets there are. I have used LPG on and off for the last 20 years. 

[geoffbeaumont]

If you can live without much range on petrol you can replace the original fuel tank with the LPG one.

You'll need to find somewhere for a small petrol tank (assuming you're running a normal dual fuel setup, which also gives you the fall back of running on petrol if you can't get LPG). My classic had a 5 gallon tank in the rear wing, but not sure if that's possible on a P38.

Mine had 2x35l LPG cylinders in place of the petrol tank - so about 56l of actual capacity and about half the range it would have had, but these days you can probably fit in quite a bit more capacity with a single toroid tank.

[Simon_CSK]

2 hours ago, geoffbeaumont said:

If you can live without much range on petrol you can replace the original fuel tank with the LPG one.

You'll need to find somewhere for a small petrol tank (assuming you're running a normal dual fuel setup, which also gives you the fall back of running on petrol if you can't get LPG). My classic had a 5 gallon tank in the rear wing, but not sure if that's possible on a P38.

Mine had 2x35l LPG cylinders in place of the petrol tank - so about 56l of actual capacity and about half the range it would have had, but these days you can probably fit in quite a bit more capacity with a single toroid tank.

How often does one actually use the spare wheel? Put the tank in the spare wheel well and carry repair foam for the tyre. Range will be about 200 to 250 miles which works for me.

[FridgeFreezer]

Alternative: put the money you'd spend on an LPG kit towards fuel, if you don't do many miles it is not really worth the hassle / compromise... if you do do a lot of miles and need the MPG, a V8 is probably a poor choice regardless.

[geoffbeaumont]

17 hours ago, Simon_CSK said:

How often does one actually use the spare wheel? Put the tank in the spare wheel well and carry repair foam for the tyre. Range will be about 200 to 250 miles which works for me.

A few months ago I'd have agreed with this, after not needing a spare for probably 20 years. But so far this year we've had three terminally damaged tyres between our two cars (neither, admittedly, 4x4s). Neither has a spare tyre, which has meant twice continuing to drive on a dangerous tyre to get the vehicle to a suitable place to get it sorted, and having it unavailable until the tyre fitting could happen. The other occasion I had the choice between waiting for a low priority AA recovery or putting in some tyre sealant and trying to limp home very carefully - went for the latter and just made it, then again had the car off the road for days. Spare tyres are currently looking like a very good idea...

 

13 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Alternative: put the money you'd spend on an LPG kit towards fuel, if you don't do many miles it is not really worth the hassle / compromise... if you do do a lot of miles and need the MPG, a V8 is probably a poor choice regardless.

Realistically this is probably the correct answer.

[Chicken Drumstick]

15 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Alternative: put the money you'd spend on an LPG kit towards fuel, if you don't do many miles it is not really worth the hassle / compromise... if you do do a lot of miles and need the MPG, a V8 is probably a poor choice regardless.

I don't do a lot of miles no. I don't think LPG is really the answer for me. But with fuel costs as silly as they are, 12-15mpg is not going to cut it today.  However, buying another vehicle will also cost money. So if I could use part of that cost to improve the p38 to be better on fuel (and performance). Then it would be a nice thing to do.

[Simon_CSK]

4 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I don't do a lot of miles no. I don't think LPG is really the answer for me. But with fuel costs as silly as they are, 12-15mpg is not going to cut it today.  However, buying another vehicle will also cost money. So if I could use part of that cost to improve the p38 to be better on fuel (and performance). Then it would be a nice thing to do.

My solution was to buy a Mini Cooper S to run around in. The problem I have is that I have a heavy right foot and the Mini isn't much better on fuel than the Sport. Having said that the Mini's tank holds £80 and the Sport £140 so regardless of mileage I feel better filling the Mini.

[Escape]

My P38, a 4.6 but with a manual, is consistently around 21mpg, on mixed use, including regular heavy traffic to and from work and occasional towing. I can live with that. Like @Chicken Drumstick the newer models are not my taste, I've driven an L322 TD6 for a while but hated it and though the Sport looks a lot better (IMHO) I don't particularly like driving that either. The TD6 averaged around 24mpg, so not worth it. I doubt the M57 would do much better in a P38. A TDV8 would be a different story, that could be fun and might be worth just to prove you can do it. Certainly wont be easy!

[FridgeFreezer]

15 hours ago, Simon_CSK said:

My solution was to buy a Mini Cooper S to run around in. The problem I have is that I have a heavy right foot and the Mini isn't much better on fuel than the Sport.

Same here - the Mini is too much fun, although it's definitely easier & faster to nip round town & park than in a LR. Bit bouncy on a long journey too.

[Chicken Drumstick]

10 minutes ago, Escape said:

My P38, a 4.6 but with a manual, is consistently around 21mpg, on mixed use, including regular heavy traffic to and from work and occasional towing. I can live with that. Like @Chicken Drumstick the newer models are not my taste, I've driven an L322 TD6 for a while but hated it and though the Sport looks a lot better (IMHO) I don't particularly like driving that either. The TD6 averaged around 24mpg, so not worth it. I doubt the M57 would do much better in a P38. A TDV8 would be a different story, that could be fun and might be worth just to prove you can do it. Certainly wont be easy!

21mpg average is really good. Doubt I'd manage that with an RV8. The 3.9 manual 90 certainly doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not after city car mpg levels. But cost per mile is quite a difference at 12-15mpg vs 22-28mpg. With current prices it costs almost a tenner just to drive to petrol station and back.   So putting £50 gets you almost nowhere these days.

[Chicken Drumstick]

20 hours ago, Simon_CSK said:

My solution was to buy a Mini Cooper S to run around in. The problem I have is that I have a heavy right foot and the Mini isn't much better on fuel than the Sport. Having said that the Mini's tank holds £80 and the Sport £140 so regardless of mileage I feel better filling the Mini.

Probably not a bad plan, but I already own enough/too man cars depending on whom you ask 

However, I do like having a big comfy 4x4 that can tow 3.5T. I don't think I'm going to rush into anything.

If money was no object I'd have ordered an Ineos Grenadier. Equally out of budget would be a new Ford Bronco, Ford Ranger Raptor or a JL Wrangler. I think any of these would mostly do what I want given the correct bank balance.

Vehicles I've considered in the mix to replace the p38 (some now completed discounted):

-Ford Ranger 3.2 6 speed (But deep down it is the Raptor that I want. The 3.2 also isn't that speedy or easily tuned, so would only at best match the 4.6 in the p38, albeit with better mpg. Somewhat less plush of an interior)

-Mitsubishi Shogun 4th Gen (Really like these, although again the engine seems a little lame and would maybe feel a bit of a comedown from a Range Rover. Otherwise a top contender)

-Range Rover Sport L320 5.0 supercharged (poor mpg, but I'd accept it for 503bhp!!! But still not sold on liking it more than a p38. There is the 3.6 TDV8 for economy, shame no 4.4 TDV8 in these. The 3.6 just doesn't quite hit the spot really)

-Range Rover Sport L494 5.0 supercharged V8 (this was the vehicle I was really aiming at pre-COVID, although prices have only gone up since then and are a bit beyond me now really. I guess a TDV8 would be considered as well. Or even a FFRR L405, but as per my op in this thread. I did a good road trip in a TDV8 L405 and ultimately found I liked it less as an entire vehicle compared to my p38)

-Discovery 3/4 (Have always liked this since launch, but I'd want to have a 2.7 auto (don't really like autos tbh). V8 D3's are too rare and non-existent in the D4. The 3.0 TDV6 snaps cranks and the 2.7 just seems too underpowered and a backwards step from the 4.6 bit like the shogun and Ranger really. Also, if buying I'd really love the locking rear diff (just because...), but it is almost impossible to find or identify. If they had done the TDV8 in these it would be the one I feel)

-Jeep Wrangler Unlimited JK (I've always been a Jeep fan and went to the UK launch of these. A bit of misinformation about tow ratings, although I "think" the LWB can tow 3 or 3.5T in the UK. But again the engine is only a 2.8 CRD, early ones not all that powerful, although you could get a 6 speed manual. They hold their money like crazy though, to get a latter facelift (all are 5 speed autos) is expensive. Also they are a step away from luxury more towards Defender style utility. And I already have a Jimny and 90 parked on the drive)

-Jaguar F-Pace/RR Velar (I fleetingly wondered if something like these would fit the bill. Although once again it is the 3.0 litre TDV6 and snappy cranks, which is a big turn off from the get go. I've not yet driven one, but having spent more time recently in a Freelander 1 and the L405 RR, it has reinforced the view that I really want something that feels & drives like a 4x4 rather than a car. So, ultimately I think these are completely ruled out on the grounds of just not being the right sort of vehicle. Despite the fact you could take them into a stubble field at harvest.

-MB G-Wagon (Hadn't really considered these previously, but on paper they probably tick a lot of boxes. It seems there is some choice priced between an RRS L320 and L494 too, so long as you aren't too picky and maybe don't mind higher mileage. Need to get and drive one. However, I suspect in most cases it may well feel a bit slow and under powered compared to the 4.6 and would likely mean spending quite a bit of money on something as old or older.)

-Range Rover L322 (Never really been a fan of these, not sure why. They just never appealed all that much. Prefer how the D3/RRS L320 look. I've driven a few L322's and they are ok, but again a bit too car like I think compared to the p38. I think the only upgrade would be a more powerful engine, but I'd only ever be disappointed with the rest of the vehicle. Also, 3 friends have TDV8 L322's, so it would be nice to have something different.

-Jeep Grand Cherokee (Similar story to the RR/Disco products. I like the older ZJ/WJ models a lot. But the newer ones are far more car focused. But maybe they are good alternative still. They 3.0 diesel doesn't have the issues of the TDV6, but lacks the TDV8 performance. And V8 ones in the UK are also incredibly rare. Also a big part of my says, if I'm buying a Jeep, I'd much rather a Wrangler than a G Cherokee.

-Jeep Commander (Mostly feel the same about these as I do for the Grand Cherokee, although the 6 seats like a Disco 3 would be very handy).

 

[FridgeFreezer]

If you can cope with "only" 2ton towing I honestly found the TD4 Freelander to be supremely practical, still felt familiar, easy parts & servicing, fairly uncomplicated by modern car standards, MPG consistently around 35, covered all bases very nicely. A bit like someone shrunk a TDi Discovery by 30%...

The Freelander 2's seem to have a pretty good rep too, and are bigger / more spacious and can have a lot more toys.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

If you can cope with "only" 2ton towing I honestly found the TD4 Freelander to be supremely practical, still felt familiar, easy parts & servicing, fairly uncomplicated by modern car standards, MPG consistently around 35, covered all bases very nicely. A bit like someone shrunk a TDi Discovery by 30%...

The Freelander 2's seem to have a pretty good rep too, and are bigger / more spacious and can have a lot more toys.

I actually share own a Td4 Freelander 1 with my brother (it was our Mum's). I like the concept of the vehicle, but the driving position is appalling. I took it away earlier in the year and it just felt too small inside for my use. It goes quite well and is pretty good on fuel. But the lack of low range is a real issue for me and the tow rating isn't good enough. I want to be able to tow a car transporter/flat bed with something like a p38 on or at least a vehicle of that size/weight.

[elbekko]

40 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I want to be able to tow a car transporter/flat bed with something like a p38 on or at least a vehicle of that size/weight.

Then all the Jeep/Bronco/... options are pretty much out from what I've seen. There's barely any vehicles that'll do 3T+. Even a huge DRW Sprinter only does 2T, which I found shockingly hilarious. The Ranger might. The Jeeps almost definitely won't, they usually have comically bad tow ratings, even in Europe.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

Then all the Jeep/Bronco/... options are pretty much out from what I've seen. There's barely any vehicles that'll do 3T+. Even a huge DRW Sprinter only does 2T, which I found shockingly hilarious. The Ranger might. The Jeeps almost definitely won't, they usually have comically bad tow ratings, even in Europe.

Generally yes, the Jeeps have poor tow ratings. I think in the USA the intent is, they want you to buy a pickup to tow with. Which isn't much help here in the UK where a standard 1985 Ninety can tow 3500kg.

Parkers website lists the 2 door JK Wrangler at 2000kg, but the lwb 5 door Unlimited is claimed to be rated at 3500kg. But I have seen other publications claim different things. I do have a 2007 brochure somewhere and that said 3500kg. In the USA the JK Unlimited was only rated at 3500lbs (1588kg). I think all they did was keep the number the same and swap the unit symbol over to kg  

[elbekko]

The only way to know for sure is to walk into a dealership and look at the paperwork... the internet says many things.

[Simon_CSK]

4 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Probably not a bad plan, but I already own enough/too man cars depending on whom you ask 

-Range Rover Sport L320 5.0 supercharged (poor mpg, but I'd accept it for 503bhp!!! But still not sold on liking it more than a p38. There is the 3.6 TDV8 for economy, shame no 4.4 TDV8 in these. The 3.6 just doesn't quite hit the spot really)

-Range Rover Sport L494 5.0 supercharged V8 (this was the vehicle I was really aiming at pre-COVID, although prices have only gone up since then and are a bit beyond me now really. I guess a TDV8 would be considered as well. Or even a FFRR L405, but as per my op in this thread. I did a good road trip in a TDV8 L405 and ultimately found I liked it less as an entire vehicle compared to my p38)

-Discovery 3/4 (Have always liked this since launch, but I'd want to have a 2.7 auto (don't really like autos tbh). V8 D3's are too rare and non-existent in the D4. The 3.0 TDV6 snaps cranks and the 2.7 just seems too underpowered and a backwards step from the 4.6 bit like the shogun and Ranger really. Also, if buying I'd really love the locking rear diff (just because...), but it is almost impossible to find or identify. If they had done the TDV8 in these it would be the one I feel)

-Range Rover L322 (Never really been a fan of these, not sure why. They just never appealed all that much. Prefer how the D3/RRS L320 look. I've driven a few L322's and they are ok, but again a bit too car like I think compared to the p38. I think the only upgrade would be a more powerful engine, but I'd only ever be disappointed with the rest of the vehicle. Also, 3 friends have TDV8 L322's, so it would be nice to have something different.

 

I would probably agree with you and said to my late friends wife "I think I have too many cars" that now haunts me regularly!!

L320 5.0 is definately on my wish list and will get one sometime soon, I hope.

Not at the L494 stage yet.

Have two Disco 3'2 and to be honest the only thing they are good for is towing a heavy load. It is practical but then the L320 with a TDV8 does the same job and is much more fun. ATM I have 4 TDV8 Sports.

I have a L332 TDV8 and like driving that too alothough I am thinking of selling it. It is a nice comfy car to drive.

[Ed Poore]

Well just done a run up the M4 and M5 to collect a boot-full of bits from the annodisers in Birmingham. Filled up in Carmarthen before going and re-filled when I returned, 340 miles of mainly motoway cruising but some heavy traffic in spots, but I was a good boy and stuck to the speed limits, albeit with some lead footedness.

The Range Rover indicated 31mpg overall and by my calculations did 29.2mpg so a little variation but then it is running 255/55R20 tyres rather than the standard 255/50R20s which is ~3.3% oversized and the mpg estimate was ~6% over.

[LiftedDisco]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:13 PM, Daan said:

I'd say that is a bolt on solution, probably with a crashed beamer as the donor, you only need to get the ECU to work standalone. The best power according to wikipedia you can get from the 2006 version is 282hp with 580 nm.

Compared to the 4.6 giving you 226Hp, looks a good proposition for a project.

Tell us on here!

Daan

A mate of mine is currently doing just this, crashed BMW (previous owner had only had it two weeks when they ran out of talent…), M57 and P38.

The feedback is that it is an immense amount of work with very little space space in the engine bay (he’s fretting about getting the aircon kit in the bay) and a bespoke steeling link - it’s all do-able but don’t underestimate the amount of head scratching required!

Edited September 17, 2022 by LiftedDisco