Androids, iPads and other gizmos - or 'why is Garmin so controlling' (rugged GPS/OBD/etc)

[BearTK]

I think this is the right forum to ask in, I apologise if it's not. This is something I theoretically can suss out for myself, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel and I also don't know what the best solutions for the UK are, as many results when searching are American focused.

One of the most exciting things about getting the Range Rover was the presence of a fabricated metal bar on the dashboard for a ram mount... nah, just kidding, but I was pretty pleased because a couple of years ago I was testing 4x4s and got a Garmin Overlander to review. This device is huge, so when shoved into the windscreen of a current Wrangler, Hilux or whatever it served less as a map, and more as an obstruction. On top of that despite having a tethered WiFI connection and a web browser, the sodding thing wouldn't log in to TW2 - ultimately it was no more useful than a regular satnav apart from adding some dials for altitude, pitch and yaw.

So of course it's spent of the time sat in a box while I wonder what the hell to do with it. Then I got Desmond and have a Range Rover that's basically made of added-on dials, screens and brackets. The Overlander fits very well on a ram ball mount I was given, and doesn't obstruct or obscure anything. Still useless as a means of finding BOATs but meh. I thought I'd finish the review, and get some tips and details up and some nice pics of it in a 4x4 that actually could benefit from it rather than a modern thing with CarPlay/Android Auto and a larger, sharper screen already provided.

Except it only supports one kind of reversing camera (discontinued), is still not terribly useful for navigation compared with a phone, and I'm sure I can put something better together.

Is there a rugged Android tablet/Windows tablet or iPad setup that people have found particularly useful and user-friendly as a way of getting TW2/similar off-road navigation, some sort of media control, and accessing reversing camera stuff? Anything which has the necessary sensors and software to replicate the pitch/yaw dials (though I have some analogue ones on the dash I might not keep them if I replace the dash to reduce the number of holes). I have a Panasonic CF-19 and vehicle mount but that's a really bulky and obnoxious setup (it's also quite slow). I was looking at a rugged Windows Mobile phone thing but thought Windows Mobile was pretty much dead as a platform of any relevance for apps, really only suited if I could develop my own app.

Bonus would be if I can use it as a media source and replace the single-DIN CD player with a pure amplifier, just headless media controls and simple, shallow fitting.

[elbekko]

I have a (second hand) Panasonic Toughpad that works ok for this. But lately I've just been using my Surface Pro 8 with a rugged cover on it. It may not be waterproof, but really, who cares in a regular vehicle. And with everything having an SSD these days, using it in a vehicle is no worry.

Navigation-wise, I usually run a mix of Google Maps (/spits in disgust), the built-in Mercedes GPS (when in the GLE), a Garmin GpsMap 62s, Gaia GPS and OziExplorer. With Samsung Dex I can run Gaia on the Surface Pro, and have it on a big screen, which works fairly well. Hopefully Android Subsystem for Windows becomes mature enough soon to directly run Gaia on the Surface Pro, but last time I tried it still crashed (and couldn't log in to my account either).

[FridgeFreezer]

These days it's hard to beat whatever cheap Android tablet is floating around, or if you want more control & tinkering then there's a ton of Raspberry-pi based stuff out there.

Or just throw Linux on an old laptop and call it done.

Inside a car is rarely bad enough that you really need a ruggedised version of anything - modern laptops & tablets are already designed for all the abuse regular consumers give them (drops, splashes, coffee spills, etc.) so are pretty hard to break, especially if they're just sat on a dashboard.

[David Sparkes]

In response to elbekko, some years ago I rewarded myself with a Surface Pro 4. Being UK centric I used Memory Map and Trailwise. The immediate difficulty was that NO GPS functionality was built into the SP4. I managed to get round that by using an external GPS receiver and a clunky piece of  Bluetooth software, but as an in-car solution it was less than 100% effective.
The SP4 continues as my house PC, albeit coupled to a larger screen, so I can view it comfortably from an armchair.

I am looking to 'revive' the concept of the in-car position tracking PC, Memory Map, and TW2, so, following your mention, is a SP8 worthy of attention?
I see it was introduced in late 2021, so should have matured by now.

In response to FF, a prime requirement when I bought the SP4 was a screen that was still readable when the sun blasted in through the vehicle windows. In that regard the SP4 was successful: I'm yet to be convinced that a 'cheap Android tablet' will come with screen and graphics card to achieve the same performance.
There is also the fact that software, while labelled 'suitable for tablets' will often be a lite (degraded) version of the PC version. I will quote Memory Map and the Windows Office suite as examples.

Nor am I convinced that 'throwing Linux at an old laptop' is a set of new tricks this dog wants to learn, sorry:-)

Regards.

[FridgeFreezer]

51 minutes ago, David Sparkes said:

I'm yet to be convinced that a 'cheap Android tablet' will come with screen and graphics card to achieve the same performance.

A cheap tablet can be what was a very expensive tablet 3 years ago with a very good screen - often other people's cast-offs are more than good enough to run a map app or similar.

Same with laptops - I've got a collection of Toughbooks & Itronix which no-one would be seen dead trying to run modern software on but are more than good enough for an old copy of Oziexplorer.

As a bonus, old laptops have real actual serial ports so you can get a decent and reliable connection to a GPS or ECU with no messing about.

[Snagger]

I think, like most things, you just have to be careful of the individual solution you look at.  I don’t know much about the subject, but my employer issued MS Surface 3s to all of the people in my branch for running all our operational apps, charts, manuals and so on and it was awful, especially its Buggins on connecting to Wi-Fi networks, but some of that could have been how the company’s IT dept set them up.  I do remember a friend in Seattle who works in a manager position at MS saying they used Surface 3s at coffee trays as that was all they were good for.  We have iPads with more proprietary software now and they work far better (loathe as I am to say anything positive about Apple products).  So, the laptop/tablet thing is not easy - some products are good, some are truly terrible, and there is everything g in between.  But from a form rather than function perspective, a tablet is surely easier to mount and use than a laptop.

[elbekko]

3 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

I am looking to 'revive' the concept of the in-car position tracking PC, Memory Map, and TW2, so, following your mention, is a SP8 worthy of attention?
I see it was introduced in late 2021, so should have matured by now

The SP8 has GPS built in, as long as you get it with the LTE modem (and yes, actual GPS, not just cell tower location). I did have a hell of a time getting OziExplorer to work with the built-in GPS though, needed to put GpsGate in between for some reason. But after that it works flawlessly.

Overall I've been very happy with the SP8. None of it is super intensive use though, I have other devices for that.

[David Sparkes]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

....But from a form rather than function perspective, a tablet is surely easier to mount and use than a laptop.

I agree; fortunately the Surface Pro 4, and beyond can be both, as the keyboard is removable, the screen (containing the computing element) becoming a touch screen. Indeed, when buying the keyboard is an extra cost option.

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

The SP8 has GPS built in, as long as you get it with the LTE modem (and yes, actual GPS, not just cell tower location). ....
Overall I've been very happy with the SP8. None of it is super intensive use though, I have other devices for that.

Thank you for those words of advice and comfort, and the reminder about GPS Gate. I hope not to need it, but with the Memory Map application needing GPS,  one should never take anything for granted 🙂

Regards.

[task]

I've always used some sort of tablet for our various trips

Started with a cheap (free because it was left over from work) 7" Samsung Tablet running OsmAnd, TomTom Go and Gmaps

Now replaced with an iPad pro because it was also a good deal, still running OsmAnd along with a few other apps we use. No added functionality but the larger screen and much faster cpu has made it a far better experience.

Both have/had "torque pro" installed to connect to a ODB scanner and they both connect to the batteries and other electronics in the van for monitoring. The Samsung tablet had an advantage if you replaced the homescreen with one of the custom ones designed for overland bikes, it made it look very similar to the garmin unit.

Handy having a web browser too so you can load up TW2 when in the UK.

 

 

[BearTK]

My first thought was an iPad - I'm more familiar with Apple kit generally - but I wanted to try and get some of the feel of the Garmin Overlander's interface; I think the main thing I wanted was something that would know about the reversing camera and switch to it - something I've seen implemented on Android-based head units. To be fair if Garmin had just not locked down the Overlander to the almost moronic degree that it will only work with one specific backup camera, it'd be fine, but if I'm going to redo the electronics I may as well get it right. Oh, and being able to sign in to TW2 - my opinion of the Overlander would have been VERY different if I'd been able to sign in to TW2 when I first got it.

I quite like the Surface idea - Windows has a lot of software, is easy to hack. I have an external GPS receiver with a power switch on it, I'm not actually sure how that works - maybe it's just a repeater. And yeah, I see no reason for ruggedised with the caveat that I think things like Toughbooks are better at tolerating extremes of heat and cold. I doubt the Garmin is that special in that regard!

[BearTK]

21 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

These days it's hard to beat whatever cheap Android tablet is floating around, or if you want more control & tinkering then there's a ton of Raspberry-pi based stuff out there.

Or just throw Linux on an old laptop and call it done.

Inside a car is rarely bad enough that you really need a ruggedised version of anything - modern laptops & tablets are already designed for all the abuse regular consumers give them (drops, splashes, coffee spills, etc.) so are pretty hard to break, especially if they're just sat on a dashboard.

That's a thought - shallow single-DIN RPi housing with a suitable four-channel amplifier hat and a suitably cased touchscreen. That would be very much in keeping with the way this RRC is built too, I could probably find a capacitive touchscreen and case it in a rugged-looking way on a ball mount that really complements the refined post-apocalyptic aesthetic (this is a compliment from my perspective  )

[simonr]

What about just using an Android head unit?  Many will talk to iPhones or Android phones, but will run Android Apps natively.

I used to have a single din unit in my 110 with a motorised pop-out screen that worked pretty well running MemoryMap.  I have an ATOTO double din unit in my van.  While it doesn't do much off-roading, I still find things like MemoryMap useful - and a host of other navigation apps.

There's bound to be an inclinometer app - though I've tended to find that you 'know' when it's too steep long before the inclinometer tells you it is! 🤣💩

[Peaklander]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:58 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Or just throw Linux on an old laptop and call it done.

That’s positioned rather like the part in TV’s older series of ‘A Question of Sport’. The teams had to work out, from a small bit of video,  ‘What happened next?’.

[Snagger]

19 hours ago, simonr said:

What about just using an Android head unit?  Many will talk to iPhones or Android phones, but will run Android Apps natively.

I used to have a single din unit in my 110 with a motorised pop-out screen that worked pretty well running MemoryMap.  I have an ATOTO double din unit in my van.  While it doesn't do much off-roading, I still find things like MemoryMap useful - and a host of other navigation apps.

There's bound to be an inclinometer app - though I've tended to find that you 'know' when it's too steep long before the inclinometer tells you it is! 🤣💩

I don’t know what apps it was capable of, but I remember being interested in a single DIN stereo at Halfords with similar screen that motored out horizontally and then folded vertical (ish) for video display, presumably some nav and camera functions and no doubt touch screen audio controls.  I’m sure newer units will be far more configurable, and I quite fancy something like that for the 109.  If Halfords had something like that a decade ago, there must be some very good pieces of kit out there now.

[FridgeFreezer]

21 hours ago, simonr said:

What about just using an Android head unit?  Many will talk to iPhones or Android phones, but will run Android Apps natively.

^^^ this, these days you can get quad-core android double-din units for 50-100 quid, very slim with no CD mechanism to worry about and GPS and whatnot wired right in. It's only a mid-range Android tablet glued into a box with a power amp but you'd be hard pressed to do better trying to assemble bits of Raspberry Pi etc. unless you really needed the Linux build.

Just don't bother with the DAB dongles, they're cack.

[BearTK]

On 11/12/2023 at 11:45 AM, simonr said:

What about just using an Android head unit?  Many will talk to iPhones or Android phones, but will run Android Apps natively.

I used to have a single din unit in my 110 with a motorised pop-out screen that worked pretty well running MemoryMap.  I have an ATOTO double din unit in my van.  While it doesn't do much off-roading, I still find things like MemoryMap useful - and a host of other navigation apps.

There's bound to be an inclinometer app - though I've tended to find that you 'know' when it's too steep long before the inclinometer tells you it is! 🤣💩

My tolerance for angles and steep is rather lower than that of most 4x4s - I've chickened out of stuff that I KNOW a G-wagen can do, for example, but unless I've got someone with me to keep an eye on things it's not worth the risk IMO.

Because of the unique way the Range Rover Classic dashboard is designed* a single-din motorised screen is a bad idea - if it doesn't automatically tilt back it obscures the heater controls and vents and is too low for a safe 'at a glance' eyeline anyway IMO, whereas the floating ball-mounted Garmin and reversing camera screen are easy to see and still don't obstruct vision.

Other than that I've no real objection to hacking an android head unit, but the cheapest ones are horribly made and have resistive touch screens (as do many of the cheaper big-brand units, a thing that seems bizarre in 2023 - maybe they have a stash of them to get through). I'm very interested in the rash of widescreen displays for adding CarPlay to a head unit with aux in and that might be my preferred route, but at that stage I'm back to 'why don't I just use a mechless DAB head unit with aux in and an iPad or tablet'.

Which I suppose really does answer the question of what I do to upgrade for me. Nice as Kingsley's Alpine-with-screen-shoved-in-the-console solution looks, I think I'll get the cheapest trusted-brand mechless (so shallow - more clearance for wiring) DAB radio with aux, bluetooth and USB, and add whatever 4G + GPS tablet offers the most screen quality and bang for buck as a semi-permanent fixture.

*FSVO designed as opposed to 'it just happened that way'

Edited November 16 by BearTK

[Retroanaconda]

Been using a 10+ year old iPad for years. Works perfectly, excellent viewing angle and resistance to glare. Runs memory map for UK laning or Guru for stuff abroad. I’ve got it mounted on the dash with a ram mount - simple and cheap. 

[Peaklander]

Does that one have a sim in it then @Retroanaconda, to provide the gps position? I have tried a wifi only one and needed it to be connected with bluetooth to a gps source. That worked ok in the alps at slow speeds but the map couldn't keep up at road speed.

Also the older and not so older models won't run many apps.

[Retroanaconda]

It’s the wifi+cellular model, yes but it doesn’t have to actually have a SIM card in. The gps has worked flawlessly everywhere I’ve used it.

I think the wifi-only models of that era didn’t have actual gps receivers in as you allude to. Not sure if that’s still the case now.

[Peaklander]

This one (wifi only) is just 2-3 years old and definitely doesn’t have gps that’s useable. I have a sneeky feeling that it somehow knows where it is occasionally but that might be my paranoia.

That’s interesting to hear that your’s can do it without a sim installed.

[Retroanaconda]

They all have the ability to determine rough location from picking up local WiFi networks etc. so that may be what it’s doing.

The SIM & cellular network connectivity is entirely immaterial, it’s just that they only put the gps receivers in the models with SIM slots. 

[Snagger]

17 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

Been using a 10+ year old iPad for years. Works perfectly, excellent viewing angle and resistance to glare. Runs memory map for UK laning or Guru for stuff abroad. I’ve got it mounted on the dash with a ram mount - simple and cheap. 

If it’s good enough for aviation and for NASA (ok, astronauts don’t use it for navigation, but they do use IPads for a lot up there).  I have found it better than the MS Surface we had before, and the industry uses various iPads almost exclusively for inflight use for performance calculations, charts and moving maps, copies of documentation and manuals and increasingly peripheral apps like monitoring and automatically sharing turbulence data to other aircraft with similarly equipped tablets via the onboard Wi-Fi and telecoms systems (where fitted, so no luck there for RYR pilots).  
 

iPads do seem to have better functionality and reliability than most other tablets, though the screen brightness can be too low in direct sunlight and is too bright on minimum at night.  It is also extremely aggravating that the brightness has to be controlled on-screen, rather than being able to assign the normally unused physical volume control buttons, as it is near impossible to see the screen slider in bright light when set to minimum.  Glare and reflections are dependent on whatever transparent screen protector you apply.  Gorilla glass seem to be good.

[simonr]

If you go down the tablet route,  I know a chap who has one of these mounted in a Tractor:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DOOGEE-Octa-Core-Processor-2000×1200-10800mAh/dp/B0C5XPD1BZ/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa

Relatively inexpensive and waterproof (which was his main consideration).

Might not be a bad option in a LR?

[Bowie69]

The Chinese Android tablets are great, as long as you don't intend on connecting them to the Internet or putting personal information on them. 

[simonr]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:04 AM, Bowie69 said:

The Chinese Android tablets are great, as long as you don't intend on connecting them to the Internet or putting personal information on them. 

You'll be hard pressed to find a tablet of phone not made in China!   Best case you only have a choice of American or Chinese spyware - but in most cases, I suspect you get both!