FridgeFreezer Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I'm wondering if anyone can provide some legal info (and not "this bloke down the pub said") on speeding tickets. Long story short I had a hire van while the company van was in for service and went through a speed trap over the limit - fair enough, I was speeding, I'm a bad man. However, the letter I have (NIP) shows the date it was sent (8th June) and also the date the offence was committed (13th March), now I was under the impression that they had to get the NIP to you within a certain time limit (2 weeks? 28 days?) after the offence for it to be valid. I know it was a hire van and so they'd need to go through the hire co etc. etc. but surely 3 months is taking the mickey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I can find out - my boss is paid up with a solicitor who specialises in tyring to get us off camera taxation. I will text him later tonight if you want... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 29, 2007 Author Share Posted June 29, 2007 If you could that would be cool, I will have words with my contact inside the force since Hants Constabulary ticket office seem to shut up at 4pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 If you could that would be cool, I will have words with my contact inside the force since Hants Constabulary ticket office seem to shut up at 4pm I'm pretty sure the NIP just has to reach registered keeper in that time not the actual driver at the time of the offence. Have a look here for more assistance.. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=5 Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 http://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q557.htm 2 weeks is correct for NIP I was wrong I got the court date for mine 12weeks after the offence that wasn't a NIP though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 29, 2007 Author Share Posted June 29, 2007 Steve - the dates are printed on the NIP which would suggest it took them 3 months to send it and I can't believe National Van Rental would take that long to find out who was driving their van. Tony - No-one else had the van apart from possibly whoever collected/delivered it to the workshop but for all I know it could live there, and they have a photo presumably showing my ugly mug driving. Like I said, I'm not overly bothered as it's a fair cop but if I can dodge it without too much hassle it would be rather handy. Edit: Just spoken to my contact and she says they've got 6 months to prosecute so doesn't look like there's any way to side-step this one, I could ask them for photo evidence etc. but the system seems designed to make you pay up quick or face a court appearance which is more hassle than I need right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 IIRC the key point is if the original NIP was sent out within the required time frame - this would have gone to the registered keeper (hire company) who would have returned it stating who it was hired to, ie your company? Plod would then send a NIP to the hiring party who would return it with your details on? Plod would then send a third NIP out to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Ask for the pic at least we can all see it on here for a laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Ask for the picat least we can all see it on here for a laugh Not sure if it still works, but a friends brother used to regularly get off speeding tickets by waiting until the deadline was nearly up then requesting photo evidence. Every step of the process he'd delay as long as possible then request whatever evidence he was entitled to. Presumably because there was no profit in the prosecution with all the extra paperwork the police always stopped pestering him after a bit and he'd hear no more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob90 Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Ask for the picat least we can all see it on here for a laugh Ask for both pics, There should be 2 pictures and work out youre speed via the lines in the road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I think it's worth fighting - or at least making it as expensive as possible to collect. I do not condone speeding - but I think it's hard to come to any conclusion other than this mainly being a revenue generation scheme! There is a stretch of the A24 where speed cameras have been placed because it was an accident black-spot. The speed limit was also reduced. Before the camera there was one of those signs telling you the number of casualties in that stretch. This year, the number is higher than the pre-camera figure. I wonder how often this is repeated throughout the country? I expect they'll be removing the camera and increasing the limit as it's obviously had the opposite effect to that intended! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 14 days they have to issue an NIP- don't know if this is different for hire companies though. There are all http://www.pepipoo.com/ is the place to ask though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jos Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I used to do a bit of prosecuting in Sussex in a former life and AFAIK the only time limit issue for speeding is 14 days for the NIP to be sent out to the registered keeper (obviously not you) and that the information / charge has to be laid before the court within 6 months as it is a summary (can only be heard in the magistrates' court) offence. My experience is that only one photo will be supplied showing how far past the trigger (measured on the lines) you have gone - in Sussex they used to print this out for every contested case. Asking for it probably won't delay things, and even if it does provided they have put the case before the court before 6 months elapses the prosecution will be valid even if it is not concluded before the 6 months elapses. If it is a fair cop and they've offered you a FPN (which they should do unless you were doing more than 26mph above the limit - in which case they can't - and you're possibly looking at being banned... ) then you may want to plead guilty by post because if you go to court you'll have to pay costs on top of a fine, it used to be £55, and the fine can be higher than the fixed penalty; if you give them the run around and / or contest it at trial you MAY end up with a substantially higher costs figure (we used to seek upto £500 for a one day trial - and it may have gone up since then). The delay may be attributable to the hire company not passing your details on. They have to do this though as failing to identify the driver is in itself a criminal offence (s172 RTA). There was an argument run that requiring you to identify the driver was a breach of your human rights because it required you to incriminate yourself - but this was shot down in flames by the European court in the case of O'Halloran and Francis v United Kingdom on the 29th of June (15 votes to 2): http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp...p;skin=hudoc-en There's an awful lot of urban myths about avoiding speeding tickets but the only argument that seems to (occasionally) work is the defence the Hamiltons ran a couple of years back - there were 2 of us in the car, we took turns to drive and can't remember which one of us was driving at the time, we're not disputing the offence just we can't say who committed it so you can't convict - it's not any easy argument to sell to the mags though and the photo evidence can sometimes rule it out. Hope this helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Fridge, I asked Pay up me old china. It's only another form of taxation anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Cheers guys, looks like it's a fair cop then I wasn't 26mph over so I'm assuming it will be the standard lower band of taxation, errr fine, at £60 and some points. If anyone knows the place it's a dual carriageway with a 30mph limit which we seem to have a lot of round here, including one that changes from 30 to 40 and back again about 5 times in the course of two miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 it's a dual carriageway with a 30mph limit which we seem to have a lot of round here, including one that changes from 30 to 40 and back again about 5 times in the course of two miles. I would be inclined to go and check VERY carefully that things like streetlights and repeater signs are in the right places then - check the distances etc.. I got done in a rural area on an unlit road in Suffolk years ago and it later transpired that the 30mph repeater signs were missing and the 30mph limit could not be enforced. Of course, by then it was years later... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Cheers guys, looks like it's a fair cop then I wasn't 26mph over so I'm assuming it will be the standard lower band of taxation, errr fine, at £60 and some points. Fair enough, you put your hand up to speeding and take the rap, but why do people keep calling it a tax???? you're not taxed on how much over the limit you are.. it's a fine..... the limit is set, you get caught going over it, you get fined. where does the tax issue come in? (my god... i can't believe that i'm defending the police/labour/highways agency! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob90 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Fair enough, you put your hand up to speeding and take the rap, but why do people keep calling it a tax???? you're not taxed on how much over the limit you are..it's a fine..... the limit is set, you get caught going over it, you get fined. where does the tax issue come in? (my god... i can't believe that i'm defending the police/labour/highways agency! ) Dont be silly, Its all about raiding youre wallet and nothing to do with speed If it had anything to do with speed or accidents they could put a sign up maybee a white one with red ring on the outside and the limit clearly displayed numerical on the inside in prehaps black figures or the type of sign that flashes youre speed up and tells you to slow down which during trials proved more effective at reducing speed and accidents than £60 punishment through the post 3 weeks later Edited to add yes i am bitter after being sent on a stupid waste of a day speed awareness course for 33 mph in a 30 zone, It cost me £90 i think but when you factor in lost wages it soon mounts up. You cant put a price on keeping youre already very worn temper whilst being lectured by a patronising **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 This has been a subject of discussion recently - and a mate pointed out that if it was supposed to be an actual deterrent the fine would be about 10x as much as it is, who's going to speed if you're going to be hit for £500-£1000? In other countries the penalty is much higher, and sometimes earnings-related. CosZuki's other half said she got done for speeding in Finland and it was about 600 Euros, now that's a proper telling off. Currently the fine is at a level that most people will pay without too much fuss, and that is an acceptable risk of speeding. Therefore it's designed more like a revenue earner than an actual legal deterrent. Just like speed cameras are placed where they seem to catch the most people (EG on fast roads with low limits), rather than where they would have the most impact on safety (I'm still yet to see one outside a school). I'm not bemoaning being caught, god knows I've had value for money up till now just that it's set up more like a revenue earner / target hitter rather than a road safety thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Dont be silly,Its all about raiding youre wallet and nothing to do with speed If it had anything to do with speed or accidents they could put a sign up maybee a white one with red ring on the outside and the limit clearly displayed numericly on the inside in prehaps black figures but it is to do with speed... the limit is set (and if there are no visible signs, surely a brief read of the relavent pages of the highway code would furnish you with the knowledge to fathom out what speed should be on what road?), you go over that speed and get caught, it costs you in yer wallet. or the type of sign that flashes youre speed up and tells you to slow down which during trials proved more efective at reducing speed and accidents than £60 punishment through the post 3 weeks later Is that like the signs that illuminate to tell lorries that there is a low bridge ahead? when in fact, the lorry driver should know how high his truck is in the first place? sorry to sound picky and stuff, i'm all for safer roads (ish... this country is far too governed for my liking anyway), but it's clearly black and white.... you speed and geet caught, you get a fine. why bother faffing around with lights and flashy signs. you don't have flashy signs to tell you not to steal from a shop? or from drinking and driving... it's common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 This has been a subject of discussion recently - and a mate pointed out that if it was supposed to be an actual deterrent the fine would be about 10x as much as it is, who's going to speed if you're going to be hit for £500-£1000? In other countries the penalty is much higher, and sometimes earnings-related. CosZuki's other half said she got done for speeding in Finland and it was about 600 Euros, now that's a proper telling off. crikey! thats a fine and a half! just that it's set up more like a revenue earner / target hitter rather than a road safety thing. but the bottom line is.... if you don't want to add to their revenue; don't speed.... (or at least, don't get caught! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Is this the 5-minute argument or the full half hour? Like I said, I don't begrudge being caught, it's a (very) fair cop and one ticket in 9 years' driving is frankly some sort of miracle. But, the point I was making is £60 is an acceptable risk - frankly it's unlikely to make me slow down at all - as such the system is geared up to not actually deter people too much, but rather to be a very mild slap on the wrist that brings in big money. Hell every time I fill up with fuel I probably give £50 to the government as tax for the privilege so a random £60 over many thousands of miles is no great shakes. If it was about stopping people from speeding then the fine would be £1000 - an amount most people could pay at a push but a dent in your bank account that you really don't want. I bet that would cut speeding down by about 90% overnight, so if the police take speeding so very seriously why don't they do it? Consider: No TV license = £1000 fine Driving a vehicle in a way that the police & road safety groups would have us believe is much more likely to have an accident / kill a pedestrian = £60 Go figure Another example: Look at the hordes of uninsured drivers, especially youngsters, who would rather risk the fine as it's actually a lot cheaper than getting insurance, even if you get caught! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob90 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 the fact that insurance companies dont hike up premiums for speeding any more as its not a true indicator of risk anymore like Mr freezer says just like the tax on youre fuel or the vat on youre tyres, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I think it's worth fighting - or at least making it as expensive as possible to collect.I do not condone speeding - but I think it's hard to come to any conclusion other than this mainly being a revenue generation scheme! There is a stretch of the A24 where speed cameras have been placed because it was an accident black-spot. The speed limit was also reduced. Before the camera there was one of those signs telling you the number of casualties in that stretch. This year, the number is higher than the pre-camera figure. I wonder how often this is repeated throughout the country? I expect they'll be removing the camera and increasing the limit as it's obviously had the opposite effect to that intended! Si Er, Si, I think not, more likely to reduce the speed limit and I have to say that if the limit was 40 mph at that particular spot on the A24 that would make more sense. What would make even more sense would be to change the road layout so that nuggets coming out of the garden centre don't pull into the path of vehicles travelling down a dual carriageway............................. Also we have the continual problem with Handcross Hill, the various agencies have talked about road improvements for years on this stretch of the A23, but every week without fail around 8am the local radio has road news which includes an accident on Handcross Hill. I do wonder sometimes why we pay road tax, certainly not for road improvements......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Spot Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 It would be a pity if the pikeys have pinched the signs and it is not enforcable, I would go and check in the early hours of the morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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