russ3120 Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Russ, are you RFFS or ex DFS or County? I am what the call in the army a unit fire NCO, with about 10years under my belt doing this, mainly fire prevention, a lectures, but provide fire cover for heli`s and any thing else the top brass decide they want us to cover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Just as a matter of interest we have had to replace our Halon system on the ship, and have gone for something called NOVEC. Not a very catchy name, but since the chemical name is 1,1,1,2,2,4,5,5,5-NONAFLOURO-4-(TRIFLOUROMETHYL)-3-PENTANONE I think it may catch on. It absorbs heat, and chemically attacks the fire. Not seen this in any portable extinguishers yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 NOVEC is a new system ( it is actually a liquid, that goes over to gas form when pressurized). The reason it has come about is mainly environmental and personell safety concerns. However it can not be used in a portable extinguisher as it needs to be confined to the area where the fire is. This is one of the drawbacks of most gas extinguishing systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Cheers for that info. Why is it that Halon extinguishers work then as surely they rely on the confinement as well? Sorry if we are drifting off topic from cheap AFFF extinguishers in Lidl! Should I start a fresh thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Should I start a fresh thread? No, best stick to this one I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 It is due to the fact that HALON interrupts the combustion process, whereas the modern gas alternatives tend to suppress or deprive the fire of oxygen by saturating the area. That is why CO2, Argonite, etc are only really effective if the gas can be contained within the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Hmmm The blurb I have on Novec says that it chemically attacks the fire as well as cools, though there is a note that the cooling effect is breaking down over 500C. The obvious fire fighting medium we have is of course water as there is plenty around us. No hosepipe ban here! With the correct techniques an oil fire can be extinguished with water as you will know g rover. I notice from F1 that the marshalls tend to use dry powder or CO2. Is it just in the vehicles competing that dry powder isn't allowed? Kind of ignores the fact that they are transported to the events by vehicle. Does anyone know if there is a link to any info on the incident that triggered the ban on dry powder in vehicles? Being in a position where I can't call the fire brigade, I have a morbid facination for fire and its causes. The most effective thing we have is speed. The faster a fire is identified and tackled, the better chance we have of putting it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicksmelly Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 There is a safe® altenrative to Halon (BCF) available from Dupont called FE-36. It is what Lifleine use in their high end car extinguishers and they call it Lifeline zero360. We have one in our 6r4 and have used it once when some wires fell on to the exhaust manifold and set alight. It put the fire out straight away, but did nothing for the re-ignition, so we had to use an AFFF as well to cool it down. The only down side to using it was the £900 bill for a refill and service as opposed to £20 for the 2 litre AFFF. Dupon FE-36 Lifeline Zero360 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicksmelly Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 For information about powder extinguishers in off road motorsport, speak to Roberto Aliperti who is the chief scrutineer on the MSA off road committe. He did some tests with the different extinguishers available after they had been round a comp safari course a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 £900 to refill?? OUCH How much would it cost to replace the 6R4 though, if at all? Our club chairman was on the Off road comittee, but not had a chat with him about it yet. Was just a lively debate, so was interested in other views as well. Getting back to the originator of the post, at least having an extinguisher in your car gives you a chance, as long as you know what you are doing and it is safe to do so. I feel that it is probably better to have a battery isolation switch in addition to the small extinguisher, and although I don't need one for RTV will be looking at fitting one soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 For information about powder extinguishers in off road motorsport, speak to Roberto Aliperti who is the chief scrutineer on the MSA off road committe. He did some tests with the different extinguishers available after they had been round a comp safari course a few times. I was involved in the test which took part during an AWDC safari at Sidbury Hill. Can't remember what year it was but it 2 years before BCF was banned and alternatives were being tested. Various extinguisher manufacturers were invited so suppy samples & representatives. Two different types of extinguisher were fitted in each car, after a couple of laps they were taken out and tested on a controlled petrol fire. Dry powder has already been outlawed long before this but was included in the tests. What came out of this were the extinguishers we use now which are AFFF and Zero2000, there was another one (whose name I can't remember) that was approved but there was a problem with the manufacturing and it never became a commercial reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Projectblue Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 There is a safe® altenrative to Halon (BCF) available from Dupont called FE-36. It is what Lifleine use in their high end car extinguishers and they call it Lifeline zero360. We have one in our 6r4 and have used it once when some wires fell on to the exhaust manifold and set alight. It put the fire out straight away, but did nothing for the re-ignition, so we had to use an AFFF as well to cool it down.The only down side to using it was the £900 bill for a refill and service as opposed to £20 for the 2 litre AFFF. Dupon FE-36 Lifeline Zero360 Nick, as you point out FE36 is damned expensive and is still yet to proove itself. Sadly you can't buy BCF anymore but it doesn't half work on engine fires. g- rover, I think the link is in the name 'Triflormeythl' with BCF being Blah Blah Tri Methyl. So possibly contains the chemical powder from BCF, but not the Halon which is the inert gas that starves the oxygen from the fire (and anyone trying to breathe near it ) You can run dual media, which is using two types together to get the best of both types, but it takes practice. AFFF is ok, if you have enough and can get the foam blanket to build properly. Always remember that once the blanket is down, not to step in it, as you will break the blanket and thus get re-ignition. This leaves you with a problem unless carrying secondary media. As illustrated by a colleague who did this on an ex. Finding himself stood in a pool of fire, he ignited the powder extinguisher in his hand, but the blast from the extinguisher, puffed a hole in the foam and.... you guessed it, re-ignited. This process of self extraction became known as ' the Smithy Dance' My TACR2 ran AFFF and was effective, but then it did chuck 900 litres out at 8ltrs a second Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 Is it just in the vehicles competing that dry powder isn't allowed?Does anyone know if there is a link to any info on the incident that triggered the ban on dry powder in vehicles? Just in competing vehicles. Although I don't know about F!. They compete under the FIA Yellow Book. Not the MSA Blue Book. In the middle 1970's a Porsche was lost in a forest due to a fire. The Dry powder extinguisher failed to work. As did a number of others. The crews had to stand and watch it burn. It could haqe been on the Scotish Rally. Hey it was a long time ago. After that the Rac banned dry powder and we had to buy BCF. I still have three BCF extinguishers in my garage and I would use any of them if necessary. Yes Projectblue. Not half does BCF work on engine fires. That's why I still had my Avenger rally car because the BCF worked. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Hi All, After the dreadfull scenario of Si R having a fire and then finding the extingusher wouldn't work, I for one decided to go look at mine and see what they are The "Date" on one erm, shall we say has panicked me The other is a Halon, yes I know but I'll be keeping it, many friends and racers I know still have their Halon should the need ever ariose - in fact one says to me " an AFFF for scrutineering and Halon to put the fire out" Which brings me to my question. Now looking to purcahse a new one 2-3 litres hand held with bracket Looked at Demon Tweeks, Rally design and Peter Lloyd Ralling, all have a selection. What are the options ?, I hear hooror stories about AFFFs failing when needed, but their seems now to also be a Gas type Zero 360 any one have views ? Frankly I am not bothered here re costs, I will buy what I can trust to work when needed, and yes I will pay attention to having it refilled / checked / serviced Thoughts please ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Have a look at www.SPA-UK.co.uk mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 2-3L are really too small Have a read in THIS thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 The last car fire I tried to put out with a power, just made a fecking mess of the dash and the fire kept burning until I severed the battery lead with an axe………………. Against all modern regulations I use Bromochlorodiflouromethane (BCF) …….. otherwise known as Halon 1211 ……………………excellent for car fires ………….. I have a nice little stock here ……….. Effects of abuse When "sniffed", halon produces a strong narcotic and anaesthetic effect, and can cause hallucinations. Experimental animal studies indicate that high concentrations of halon 1211 (20 to 25 gimI) in the bloodstream, can cause serious cardiac arrhythmia. Sudden death is thought to be caused because BCFs sensitise the heart to the arrhythmogenic action of adrenaline. The higher the concentration, the shorter the time required to achieve hazardous bloodstream concentrations. Most deaths appear to occur quickly, unconsciousness occurring within minutes of inhalation. Hmmmmmmmmmm…………. I could think of better things to ‘sniff’ to give me a high Halon fire extinguishers Halon is due to be phased out under the Montreal protocol to protect the ozone layer. It has, over recent years, enjoyed some popularity as a substance of abuse, with the majority of the 54 (4%) deaths from fire extinguishers (1971-1992) attributable to it. Little is known about its possible chronic toxicity when abused. A vital function of a fire extinguisher is safe, effective and reliable operation. The inclusion of 'stenching' agents has been considered, but the reliability of the extinguisher is affected by the purity of the BCF. Such agents obviously must not interfere with the performance or storage of the appliance. Tests have been conducted with mercaptans (sulphur-based stenching agents) and ammonia. Mercaptans are ineffective at high concentrations and ammonia is itself acutely toxic and could seriously compromise the appliance's use by a legitimate user. The UK Government signed the Montreal Protocol at the United Nations, and it was decreed at a revisionary meeting that the production of BCF for fire extinguishment should be reduced by 50% for environmental reasons by 1995, and completely phased out by the year 2000. Existing BCF fire extinguishers are gradually being replaced by carbon dioxide versions. Hmmmmmmmmm………………. Running a V8 or two …………. I can live with the ozone propaganda Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicksmelly Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Looking at Lifeline fire - direct i've noticed the prices for the Zero360 have come down quite a lot since we bought our electric discharge 3kg thingy from Demon Tweeks. Last year it cost nearly £900 to have ours refilled and serviced, but that includes the explosive charge canister that provides the pressure. They do a 2.25kg hand held Zero360 extinguisher, but i'd still have a AFFF as backup to cool the area to prevent reignition. I can get 2kg / litre AFFF with transport brakcet for £25 + VAT, I suppose if you ask your local fire extinguisher place i'm sure they are all about the same price. You might get discount if you buy a lot for other forumeers? BTW, the Lifeline Zero2000 is very similar if not the same as AFFF Also look on ebay for Halon / BCF extingusihers, they come up all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 is CO2 totally useless in a vehicle envrioment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 The problem with CO2 is it blows away - so you put the thing out, then it re-lights, then you put it out again... etc. I had this enjoyable discovery using a 10Kg CO2 in anger on a burning bin full of oily rags, used 2kg on the first attempt, 3kg on the second and the remaining 5kg on the 3rd then dragged it outside still very much alight and emptied a kettle full of water onto it which did the trick. As has been said, it doesn't take the heat out like AFFF or water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 TBH with a suitable nozzle fitted I think water would be an efficient extinguisher for a vehicle. But I wouldn´t consider anything smaller than a 12Kg powder extinguisher. We have 2 in the house, and none in the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinny Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 i know people laugh i carry a 9 litre afff and 6kg dry powder dont take up much room but there if needed just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 In my opinion there are 2 reasons why AFFF or foam extinguishers are nowhere near as good as Halon and dry powder. With petrol fires as soon as you put down foam and walk towards the seat of the fire your feet remove the foam and the fire can and probably will start again behind you. Secondly you are relying on a sealed canister remaining sealed to drive the water/foam mix and very often they just go phut! just when you are relying on the thing to work. Dry powder is not good in a vehicle situation as said elsewhere the powder tends to settle due to the vehicle vibration and if you have an engine fire the powder will probably wreck the engine if still running. Halon really is the only sure way of the diy fireman putting out a small fire! The big airport fire engines spread the foam from a distance so that the blanket of foam is not disturbed by tyres / boots etc. Halon expands to about 300 times it volume and is not affected as badly as CO2 with wind blowing the extinguishing media away. Both halon and CO2 have a pressurised cylinder so if the pressure gauge needle is in the green then the appliance will work. I remember setting-up a fire demonstration at the gliding club which I am a member, I thought I had better practice on my own before showing others, set an empty 45 gallon drum going with a gallon of diesel and some wood in the bottom, pulled the pin on a foam 5 litre and I could have pi**ed with more effect on the fire! Pulled the pin on a 5 litre halon and the fire was dead in seconds. After that we changed all the extinguishers from mainly foam to mainly halon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Projectblue Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Nige et al, see thread about Lidl extinguishers. Nas 90 is correct - if you have BCF, keep them. You would be entitled to use them in the preservation of life, just not for practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Oh don't worry - I'm Keeping my Halon BCF. BUT I am going to get a back up 2nd extingusher, Zero 360 is at the mo at the top of the list, interesting is that Comps regs require AFFF, Zero 360 is gaseous and EXCEEDS AFFF rating - so can (and I have found out) is carried by many drivers over AFFF, where they can many also carry a Halon too Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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