Winches discussion

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Sorry guys, but this is whole thread so far seems to be about the winch ‘winning’ …………. Winchtime has already given the answer……..I don’t know who you are, but you are right on the money…………

Team work ………….

Vehicle reliability………

Site knowledge…….

Driver ability……….

Tyre choice on the day

Winch reliability

To be honest, if at any given site you can tick the above boxes then even if your winch is some very mediocre piece of kit, your are going to be highly placed ………

OK, electric winches dominate the sport, and the regular ‘competitive’ players have chosen to use the excellent product from Jim at Gigglepin. These guys tick a lot of the above boxes, but the winch speed and ‘pull factor’ is not important. What Jim has achieved is important to consider in detail and then the comments balanced against ‘winning’ ………. In terms of reliability and user friendliness, Jim has turned what was a mediocre ‘out of the box’ winch into an ultra reliable winch that is unlikely to let you down even under the most arduous conditions. However, if you can only tick one of the above boxes then your chances of winning a major competition are slim to non existent.

Carl and John at Golddigger are now doing much the same with the hydo ( I refuse to call it by its name ….. sorry Carl), which is an excellent product and once its reliability has been proven it will be along side Jim’s product ‘at the top of the reliability’ pile………but again, even using an excellent product, unless you can tick all the boxes, then winning is not going to happen …………I am sure that during the recent event, both John and Carl were not really focused winning or even being highly placed ………. I guess their main focus was evaluating their product under arduous conditions and looking to what improvements could be made for that extra 1% ……….

For winning consistently, a lot of factors have to fall into place ……….. it is not any one factor that wins ………. but any form of unreliability in any area can ultimately lose !

Lets look at some well known competitors and blow away a few urban legends …….

Take Simon Buck for instance, although these days Simon does not compete that much, in the past he was a consistent winner and even today is usually highly placed in any competition………. does he use willy measuring looooong travel suspension, err no and never has………. Does he use a super fast winch, err no ………….but then start to look at the team work between Simon and Matt, the truck preparation and reliability, team experience, etc, etc ………. They always tick a lot of the boxes ………..

I would be interested to see a reply from Jim on my observations ………..

Ian

[RedLineMike]

Has anyone used a mechanical winch successfully on the uk challenge scene?

1/2 of the winning team at the TFC was a TD 90 with a PTO winch

[Daan]

1/2 of the winning team at the TFC was a TD 90 with a PTO winch

Yes, and his teammate had a single motor 8274. That goes to show that all this talk of new stronger and faster winches is pretty much irrelevant; what you need is a good team with a car that doesnt break down. Thats what makes you win in my opinion. Simon Buck won the outback in morroco, again with just a singlemotor 8274.

I am using a PTO winch in competition and I firmly believe that is the best thing you can have for continues use. My results might not mean anything, but I blame the mentioned problems for my shortcomings!

Daan

[Steve 90]

When you do a proper winch challenge (like the Tay), you can do a proper comparison . When I have dragged you through a few sections, you may see things differently (assuming we get a place). On the other hand, Jims winches are something special...........

Thats not really the best example you could have given Alan, Past results dont look too kindly on Hydro.

1st on the 07 Tay were and 8274 and (as mike says) PTO winch.

We were second, Both trucks running (at that time) standard 8274's although we did drop most of the saturday PM when Pilot error broke the front winch on my truck.

Alan and Saley were third with Hydro, If I recal correctly John had no winch's at the end because the Pump packed in and Alan had to be rescued from a bog he couldn't get out of!

All these winch have there troubles granted but as yet im still happiest with the electric, especially with the twin motor. Its quite simply brilliant. Jims trying to get me to run higher ratio which I probably will very soon but at the moment the std ratio is very very impressive.

[Escape]

Lets look at some well known competitors and blow away a few urban legends …….

Take Simon Buck for instance, although these days Simon does not compete that much, in the past he was a consistent winner and even today is usually highly placed in any competition………. does he use willy measuring looooong travel suspension, err no and never has………. Does he use a super fast winch, err no ………….but then start to look at the team work between Simon and Matt, the truck preparation and reliability, team experience, etc, etc ………. They always tick a lot of the boxes ………..

I would be interested to see a reply from Jim on my observations ………..

Ian

I was thinking the same thing! The D44 trucks look great, but never so extreme you get the impression it's just the car winning, it truly is a team effort.

Personally, I like to be a bit different and prefer hydro, so I'm building my own version of the Type R, with a bit of luck it will be running by the end of this month and I might cross the channel for some UK-events.

Greetz,

Filip

[Lara]

This all sounds very like a funny scenario that used to happen here in Belgium,

I used to build some Race engines for F1 Ski boats, 8 litre Twin Turbo 1200+ bhp etc and these 7metre boats would do over 110mph with a skier on the back !!!!!!!!!

We have a big yearly race here in Antwerp called the diamond race where all the top teams from around the world used to come to compete.

Some VERY good skiers, (race is for 1 hour + 1 lap, try that at full speed behind 1200bhp all you winch bitches )

After the race was won, the rich idiot owners who thought they could just throw money at the sport and lost used to go and try to buy the winning boat "because it must be faster than theirs as IT had won the race" Forgetting about the poor skier hung on the back,

These guys had also thrown their skier in the drink a few times by not listening to him when he was telling them to hold speed and not worry when someone was in front of them in the early stages, instead they would try to race "boats" with no regard to the skier!

The whole package!!!!

And Driver / Bitch combination is most important !!!!!

Lara.

[JST]

Winchtime - do you have a picture of your truck/winch? so i can at least work out who you are?

[white90]

http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=22985

[D9OSV]

I completely agree with you Bull Bar Cowboy................

I have been lucky enough to win pretty much every major title in the UK at least once over and it is not by being the best driver or even having the best car or co driver..............

What i am very good at is making the package work and gell together, thus always making us a dangerous opponent.

The Tay Trophy 2007 is a very bad example of winch ability as that event was won entirely on tatics not the best car, equipment or anything else for that matter........just tatics.

Simon Buck is also very good at getting the very best from his team (truck, driver, co driver, winch) this is a relationship that has been built up over 12 years and shows. they rarely shout at each other and although Cookie (he will love me for saying this) is not the fittest bloke about town, he is very, very good at what he does and rarely makes a mistake.

Winches are and always will be a very personal thing that is the prefered opinion of each individual.

Everybody has there own ideas as to what is great and what is not. This is very important otherwise we would all stop looking for the ultimate solution.

I believe i have found my "Ultimate solution" and just keep improving it.

To that end people have been buying and using this product with many great results and NO failures.

Just this weekend alone Twinmotor winches took 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th at the Ultimate challenge, the uk's only three day event, and 2nd and 3rd at the "Extreme" in France (3 day event, very tough).

This by defintion does not prove that these winches will make you win? But it does keep proving that they are 100% percent reliable and will help you to win events.

Jim

[simonr]

Watch out Jim - I'm in danger of agreeing with you!

At Slab Common, for the first time, I saw one of Jims twin motor 8274's in action in a really really sticky place. I've seen them used before in places where any old 8274 performs well - but this is the first time one has really shined!

I can't remember which punch it was but the mud was waist deep and you had to zig-zag through the trees to exit. Although all the re-rigging took a long time, the twin motor with drive assist pulled the truck through effortlessly.

The next truck with a more standard 8274 still got through it but with the motor straining and the pawl on the brake going "click......click......click" - you know that sound! very slow. I felt sorry for the poor motor!

I saw a Hydraulic go through as well - and although it looked very methodical, it didn't look as fast or effortless.

Si

[winchtime]

On the basis i got confused when the talk was taken off where i had been typing and removed i guesses i had offended the editor or similar. Given a bit more time i have now found the thread again, so i'll answer a few more of the questions that were put to me.

The advantages i can see on our new design over the Type R

Sealed unit (It really is, not just saying it!) We drained the oil to check after slab and wish i hadn't as it was a waste of good oil, no need to do that again.

All gears are have oilite bushes all bearings are too big and therefore shouldn't have any probs, ie the main bearings are from tank running gear!

Change gear or freespool from the cab with the air rams. They do automatically go into gear if we loose air before anyone asks.

125ft more rope and that making the rope 12mm not 10 also.

approx 60% more grunt no double lining for me.

Personal reasons for going hydro and these are my preferences and not a reason not to have electric.

I like the fact that if i want to winch slowly i can.

When i tell the winch to stop there is no overrun.

No worries about dead batteries or alternators not working, if my engine runs my winches will, however on the same point if my engine doesn't run then my hydro winches won't, thats why i still have a central electric just in case.

For those that havn't made the connection Winchtime = Peter Jackson Range Rover tray back

I look forward to the barrage!

[bishbosh]

Peter,

No barrage on here - just enthusiastic debate! Besides, someone has to stop Jim running away with all the trophies!!

I suspect your posting problem is due to new users being "vetted" by "The Management".

Perhaps a mod could confirm?

Anyhow, back to your winches - we need more info, spec, prices availability etc etc!!

[winchtime]

Spec is not yet for the public domain yet.

I have put out for prices to get castings made, but don't think with everything that goes into them that many people will buy, I would guess we are talking £2,500.00 each! I hope to get this down, as for availability. Could be ages if i beleive i have a competitive edge with them!

For info there are no plastic parts, either stainless or ali

Oh and we are calling it "Winch Revolution"

[88 Nick]

I wouldnt think your going to tempt people who already have electric winches(like me) to swap,we've got too much dosh tied up in them as it is,but I recon that price is similar to that of a fully sorted twin motor,and if the price comes down for a second one as you would have the pump etc it becomes more competative.

If I was starting out equiping a vehicle I would be very tempted. It would be a shame if you dont go commercial with them after all the development work you;ve put in

[D9OSV]

Hiya Peter,

As Bish says "No Flaming here"

Great looking winch that works well, whats the problem with that?

Love the fact it can be controlled from inside the cab that really is a very clear advantage over the old system.

I also like the fact you've had the balls to stick to a large low line unit where most would not, thus keeping one of the best bits of the type 'R', the fact it does not restrict the cooling in any way. Please do not get me wrong i think that John and Carls upright unit is also a superb piece of engineering with many advantages also.

I think this healthy competition is good thing for the end user, as is choice.

I wish you well with what is undoubtably going to be a formidable opponent.

Is the price for the just the winch? Or does that include pumps, motors, valve block etc.........

Not taking a cheap shot, geniunely intrested. Yes price is important, but if people understand that what they are getting can not be acheived for any less or made any better they will pay it. Always best to build to a spec, not a price.

I would be suprised if you have not already wet the appittites of at least a fair few people.

Jim

Ps: I hear every week from someone that is going to make a cheaper Twin motor system...........

Then they look at the spec, then they check with there engineers, then they order one of us

[B reg 90]

The Tay Trophy 2007 is a very bad example of winch ability as that event was won entirely on tatics not the best car, equipment or anything else for that matter........just tatics.

Jim

Jim,

Whats wrong with tactics??? Beats randomly falling into the nearest bog because 'it's there' - See you at the TAY!

Winchtime,

Looks a very nice winch - there must have been a lot of hours put into it. Looks like it is based on Milemarker internals (???) - based on the two gearchange mechanisms.

One question which I feel is very important - What's the ratio of winch speed to wheel speed if you drive assist. The reason for asking is that I have yet to see a hydraulic system that allows you to drive the wheels at ~ the same speed as the winch is pulling. Usually the wheels will go at ~ 3 times winch speed - hammers the drive train/tyres on rocks, digs bigger holes in the mud.

Having used a totally reliable PTO winch over a number of years in competitions, it's only draw back was the total lack of drive assist, otherwise I would still be using it. Superb in wood land, useless on moorland where ground anchors pull out, or anywhere where drive assist is needed.

Adrian

P.S. Jim - will you be signing autograph's at the TAY on behalf of Simon?

[will_warne]

Ps: I hear every week from someone that is going to make a cheaper Twin motor system...........

Then they look at the spec, then they check with there engineers, then they order one of us

I would reciprocate that statement

I looked seriously into having a custom twin housing made up using Jim's top housing gears but designing the case to split horizontally (as on an 8074). Cost was BIG to get it done right and I was sensibly talked out of it.

Peter, I don't think anyone will flame you. To build what you have is a superb achievement - looking at the photos the quality of the finished items looks superb. I can't wait to see them in the flesh.

[Young bobtail Rhys]

I assume you lot have heard of the wazza design for the 8274 then? Is it any good? There is a guy in aus who has bought the gigglepin top housing and then put the 2 wazza mounts on, therefore giving him 4 motors and a 24hp 8274

[D9OSV]

Jim,

Whats wrong with tactics??? Beats randomly falling into the nearest bog because 'it's there' - See you at the TAY!

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

Nothing wrong with tatics, stop being so edgy Just saying that event is a bad one on which to judge winch performance as tatics proved more important.

As for the Autograph bit, mate you would have Mildly miffed yourself. Bathtub was on the wind up, it was not Simon he was after poor deluded lad

@ Young Rhys: Hi Rhys, yes we are well aware of the Wazza system. It is very clever and quite cheap, however fails to strentghen the winch internals leaving the winch vunerable to failure.

Of the top twenty teams in Aus our winches are fitted to more than 16 of them and dominated the 2007 season.

I am hoping to get some very good results this year, but only time will tell................

Jim

[will_warne]

I assume you lot have heard of the wazza design for the 8274 then? Is it any good? There is a guy in aus who has bought the gigglepin top housing and then put the 2 wazza mounts on, therefore giving him 4 motors and a 24hp 8274

I first saw wazza's kit a few years ago on Pirate (IIRC). Rhys, the guy with the wazzaed gigglepin winch is probably running the motors at 24V (a lot of the Aussies do) so he'll be pushing out a lot of power.

[Young bobtail Rhys]

Thing is, how many batteries would he require to run four 24v motors and how bigger alternator or how many alternators?

Also, as the wazza system fits onto the xp motor, can you run it on an xp winch? Or would the internals wear and brake very quickly like on the 8274, although the xp is a much slower winch and therefore more gentle on components?

[Chris Abel]

Thing is, how many batteries would he require to run four 24v motors and how bigger alternator or how many alternators?

Also, as the wazza system fits onto the xp motor, can you run it on an xp winch? Or would the internals wear and brake very quickly like on the 8274, although the xp is a much slower winch and therefore more gentle on components?

It would probably be fine with a 150amp 24v alternator and two deep cycle batteries, if Jim can use his setup all day using one 70 amp 24v alternator through 12v motors.

However i can't really see the point in using 4 motors!, the twin is plenty fast enough, and if you stick 24v through 12v its balistic!

[D9OSV]

Thing is, how many batteries would he require to run four 24v motors and how bigger alternator or how many alternators?

Also, as the wazza system fits onto the xp motor, can you run it on an xp winch? Or would the internals wear and brake very quickly like on the 8274, although the xp is a much slower winch and therefore more gentle on components?

The answer to the batteries question is quite a few

But as for the one about the XP ? That is a great question B)

In fact at the last rounds of the Extreme challenge series some guys were using massively modified lowline winches with twin motors linked by the Waza system !

Awesome was the judgement on them at first, unfortunately they started to suffer with reliability issues as the poor old XP winch just can not take the power and the brake tends to give up just a bit quick as well.

However if they get it sorted, it could be a good bit of kit

Jim

[will_warne]

The answer to the batteries question is quite a few

As you say it becomes self perpetuating. More power means you need to upgrade to get it reliable which means more weight and then you need more power again..... Getting the balance right is what its all about.

FYI I'm going to be running my winches (2 x 12V 7.8hp motors run @ 24V on the front and 1 x 7.8hp 24V motor at the back) off a 90 amp 24V alternator and a pair of yellow top optimas. No idea if it'll work but I'll soon find out

[simonr]

I think some of you are confusing Joules with amps.

To pull your truck out of a given hole takes the same energy (more or less) whether you are running 1hp or 100hp. A higher power winch does not require more batteries (other than to get 24v) or a bigger alternator.

In fact, the higher power motor combo will use less energy because of the shorter duration than the lower power.

For 24v, you could reasonably use two smaller batteries where the sum of the Ah capacities is equal to your bigger battery. You benefit from the lowe heat losses and get more winching from the same battery capacity.

By the way - the Hydraulic winch looked brilliant at slab and is obviously a good bit of kit.