yella 90 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 :rolleyes:imho boothy, to answer your original question i think if you have hydro steer you will definitely win, possibly without even trying to and obviously be able to levitate ,travel through time and of course my personal favorite walk on water.The other reported advantages seem to be improved sexual prowess and increased wealth after finding numerous pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.i wonder if they,ll make you keep tyre pressures to the recommended manufacturer,s pressure,definitely no run flats,you risk getting burnt at the stake.hth just off now to find out if the world really is flat...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 from my point of view it would be down to a failure aspect there is no mechanical link between the steering wheel and steering components, so if a failure was to occur during mid section or s/s like :- - a bust pipe - seals in orbital valve give way - or total pump failure - bent rod that would leave you without steering, which dependant on situation could comprimise your own personal saftey and others around. Sorry but that's utter rubbish - any given hydro steer setup is no more or less likely to fail than any given LR steering setup: - Broken steering box sector shaft - Stripped gear in box - Dead/sticky column UJ - Bent steering bars - Busted TRE All of the above can and do happen, a friend of mine had the sector shaft on his 110 fall out because it had snapped, and that was a daily driver used to ferry the kids round! There are things which can fail with any system, mechanical, hydraulic, whatever. People obviously need to be aware of these and maintain their vehicles (something which is not done as often as it should be by many). Back to the bunfight, I can't see why a line should be drawn for a single modification, it makes no sense. Hydro steer is only a way of turning the wheels and like any other modification can bring disadvantages (slow reaction, boiled fluid) if done wrong. If you ban hydro then what's stopping people sticking a Unimog PAS box on their truck? Who remembers the other arguments about modifications: - Rear steer, not road legal? - Portals can't do side-slopes - LSD's hinder you turning corners - Some aggressive tyres will just dig on some terrain - Heavy vehicles (eg loads of mods) will sink - Wide vehicles don't fit between trees Sometimes an SJ will get further than a big heavily modded truck because they're that much lighter and more manoeuvrable. Sometimes big tyres & portals will get you through ruts others have to winch through. People need to decide why the rules are there - if there needs to be a class system then there are plenty of precedents out there - the Offroad GP trophy raid classes (as used for Ladoga etc.) seem fairly sensible and let everyone have a fair crack of the whip. What do the rules say about any of these? - Turning up in a lightened UniMog or C303 - Turning up on a road-legal quad or Argocat - Having hydro assist where the mechanical link is a bit of bailer twine or somesuch - Turning up with portals but smaller tyres than those with beam axles - Turning up with custom beam axles and 54's (is that better or worse than portals & 44's) - Having no lockers but custom ETC & ABS - Turning up on a sledge with two seats, no wheels, a donkey engine and a cable pulling winch with 1000' of rope. You know someone will try most or all of those at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 There are a few good reasons for not allowing hydro steer, as others have said already there are reasons of keeping the sport affordable and keeping vehicles vaguely road legal. To claim that it gives no advantage is daft. If it doesn't give you an advantage why would you go to all that trouble fitting it when standard power steering does the job ? From an organisers point of view the first problem is that of safety. Most modern steering systems use hydraulic assistance and in the event of a failure in the pipework/pump/engine the vehicle can still be safely steered while you slow it down or recover it. Full hydraulic systems usually have no such safety system built in and the effect of the engine stopping or a pipe/valve failure can result in no steering at all or the steering going instantly to full lock. Some systems are better than others, some seem to lose steering all together when the engine dies and others can still be steered through the hydraulic system for a period of time. Perhaps you could offer a demonstration to show your steering capability after disconnecting a pipe to the rams or the pump by driving a slalom course ? If nothing else it would act to educate organisers that have reservations about the redundancy of the systems ? It may not satisfy those that are looking at "level playing field" reasons but it might go some way to alleviating the concerns/enlightening those looking at safety. All organisers have their target audience in mind and if you don't fall into that target audience then you need to either go to another organiser's event or change. I'm pretty sure the organisers were already removing full hydro steer vehicles from their regs long before you fitted it to your vehicle so why would you carry on and fit it anyway when other competitors shied away from doing it ? There are a lot of regs I don't agree with in the challenge competitions at the moment and there are some competitions where the standard of vehicles taking part and the standard of scrutineering fall well below the standard I'd accept. I choose the competitions where the event organisers have my confidence that they are capable or running the event and have regs that are consistent and I can meet with them. In some cases I've asked if they would be willing to change their regs and, if not, I just don't enter. There are lots of events out there to choose from and some event organisers will not only welcome you but will set the event out with 4 wheel steer, full hydro steer, 44 inch plus tyres, forestry tyres etc... as their baseline vehicle. That way you get to compete against people with similar vehicles, after all it's supposed to be a sport not an engineering competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Ban it? No need. Classify it, yes. At the end of the day, hydro steer, or even assist (beyond normal PAS) is a driving aid. If you are nose down in a ditch you have no chance of turning the wheels with a standard PAS system. With hydro you can, and this gives you an advantage. Same as lockers, portals, extra winches, " I don't care" cages etc. etc. The only way to satisfy all is to have very clearly defined classes. Then all you do is build your truck for your class of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 What do the rules say about any of these? - Turning up in a lightened UniMog or C303 I like your thinking, ime of to look for a mog so standard class look out, Going back of topic, It also seams to be dictated by how well equiped your workshop is and how skilled you are a using it, you can build a good spec truck on a tight budget,just how you go about it, your bank ballance for the checkbook builders who are able to ring up a company and spec anything they want but still wont make them a better driver, so hydro steer? If a pipe did burst then on a typical challenge event no great speed is done so you would have time to stop then sort out pipe with your spare and carry on, (open can of worms) Shurely roll cage's would be more a safety issue lots of rolls on HW this year, all had cage's (close can of worms) Carl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The only way to satisfy all is to have very clearly defined classes. Then all you do is build your truck for your class of choice. Agree with you on this, some clubs do opperate a handicap system on classes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well thats better, but to help a point along I have spent most of the season suffering from 3 brand new ZF74 pumps which have certainly not given me any benefit at all, so I think this year I have proved that lock to lock steering is possible with a system faiure and would willingly take on any slalom course with no belt on if thats what required. Now you take your drag link off to simulate a power steering failure and follow me, point is anything can happen. Down sides of hydrosteer, Doesn't work as well as you think, and certainly is not mega powerfull and will easily stall if nose down in a trench etc. Steering feeling is a thing of the past. Every time you get in the steering wheel is facing a different direction, don't bother squaring wheel up. There are plenty of times throught the day when you have not got a clue which way your wheels are facing. My total hydrosteer cost less than a Paddocks re-con steering box, shop around and adapt its what we do best, don't buy bolt on. How many out of control JCB's and Loadall's etc are seen out of control ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Why or what is the stigma attached to pure hydrosteer, and why is deemed to be so advantagous? Just read the Midland off road reg's and again "no pure hydrosteer", so whats the big advantage with being able to steer?, or is just the case of another organiser who cannot move with the times. Don't take it to heart MOR your just the one I saw today, I've been asking myself this question for some time now. I can understand Rear steer and/or Portals offer an avantage but not hydrosteer, was the same sort of stigma attached to servo assisted brakes or intermittant wipers when thay were introduced? Or is a case of we haven't got it on ours so you can't play? Maybe the reason is failure or lack of understanding, but surely the very fact it will turn cannot be seen as an avantage but surely a neccessity and most of the systems I have seen are stronger than the standard bendy rods type so safety surely cannot be penalised because if thats the case why not penalise and ban roll cages? If its the reason what happens if a hose fails, well I haven't seen one go yet but seen plenty of standard steering rods and track rod ends fail. So come organisers tell us your reasons. The midland do not ban hudrolic steer, but they do insist on a mechanical link, the reason is if fluid is lost then there is no steering on a purley hudrolic set up,(try turning a tractor or forklift) so car is imobile and may have to be left on site, untill fixed, Do you really want to leave your pride and joy in a wood or pond untill you can fix it, (if the local lowlifs find it it will probably end up burnt out and bits on e bay) at least when there is still a mechanical link there is steering, heavy but steering.And you can always straighten a bent tube or tie a tierod end to make it mobile. there is nothing wrong with progress and technical inovation, servo breaks are brill untill you loose then,abs IS BRILLIANT untill it cant find any grip o has a fault and turns breaks off(range rover classic) traction controll is brilliant untill you have no traction at all and turns all power off(merc sl range). every thing has its place and its limits, big tyres could be said to be making up for poor driver skill, difflocks make up for poor axle articulation, nobody wants to stop progress, and there are plenty of unlimated mods events to enter, ps there is also a lot to be said for going back to basics and just ysing a few waffle boards a towrope a ratchet strap and a lot of carfull driving, TRY IT, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl hurst Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 - Turning up on a sledge with two seats, no wheels, a donkey engine and a cable pulling winch with 1000' of rope. You know someone will try most or all of those at some point. This is the future of off road! extreeme sledge challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Round and round we go..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Now't wrong with a donkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHT Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 On one of our events this year 2 vehicles snapped steering ball joints off thus leaving them with no steering at all. they had to repair on the spot. How is that so different to losing hydrolic oil. I'll vouch for Boothy in the fact that there is very little advantage at all and the whole safty aspect is B*^**!cks if hydro steer is so unsafe then why do we use it on some of the biggest and most dangourus machinery known to man. But I do feel it should be in a seperate class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIMEXSLAVE Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I have competed for years and worked my way through the different classes , my local club are ALRC and still have trails and events for beginners and road based vehicles. I now compete with 37" large tyres,shortened chassis, lockers and hydro rear steer, there are plenty of clubs and organisations that are open minded and forward thinking. I take part in events over in France and there are (as Al Murrey rightly points out ) no rules , we all play nicely together. I carry spare hydalic hoses and pump but have never needed them. And worse ways a failure at the speeds we compete at would not end in a high speed incident, surely its better to have steering and be in control than to have a non steerable car stuck in the bottom of a ditch having to winch themselves round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Right, this subject is touched many times before, and will be touched again for sure. From a legality standpoint, if you trailer your car to a quarry, do an event, and trailer back home again, hydrosteer is ok. Most UK events are going this way, unfortunately. But this club seemingly does not want this group of people to turn up at their event. I think it should be applauded that there are events catering for people that need their car to be road legal. There is only one more event like this in the UK (from memory) and that is the muddy truckers. So, it is almost like you need Hydro steer to be competitive on all other events. My argument would be that if all organizers stipulate the mechanical link rule, things would develop into steering systems that alow you to do the same as hydrosteer, but are road legal. That would be the best development I could think of. Daan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) I am a member of the morc and do as many of their challenges as time and cash dictate,by no means are all the motors competing road legal, I think the point of the restrictions are to keep a levelish playing field and not scare of those of us on a tight buget. Im not saying they've got it completly right as im sure they could do with bigger turn out at events to help pay site fee's etc, me I just get fed up having my ass kicked by standard zuk's Its tricky to know where to draw the line though,ALRC anyone? Sorry some of us zuks beat you, if you wait a while the rust will have become terminal and you can then win,ha ha. Blody hell what a debate on the sreering issue, all above have a valid point, but one point that noone has raised is the true reason ( i suspest ) that hydrosteering has been fitted to so many bigger vehicles,no effort steering. Let me explain: When you fit big tyres, you often find big offset wheels, these dont turn they sort of swing when steering, when a vehicle puts weight on the front axle ( nose dive into ruts ect) the steeribg becomes very heavy as the vehicles weight is lifted by the steering as the wheels try to swing rather than pivot on there center, hydro steer has no/very little feel to it and if u turn the steering wheel the steering wheels turn regardless of weight/load on them( dont even dare to mention relief pressure valves, because if ypur going to tell me that you fitted a relief valve or only have a small punp so it mimics a series 2 or a rangerover pas box, then i wont believe u) There are benifits to this and i could have easily fitted this to my susi, or jeep or rangerover but i chose not to, and in doing so put myself at a dissadvantage( probably) but its a choice i dont regret, and reading all the comments i think for me its the right chouce, im also thinking of loosing the difflocks and detuning my diesel engine. Think about it! think very carfully indeed, think bact to your early days in a 4x4. Edited October 12, 2009 by Daan No need to shout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 what dose the MSA say on steering??? Any idea anyone???and will the fact that msa clubs having to have a msa official have any impact on the subject???? dunno? just a thought i had in the bath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Nick Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I'll put my neck on the line here as usual The MSA 2009 Supplementary Regulations dont state anything about hydro steer. It's more of an Event Organizer rule. quote blue book (F) Cross Country Events. 319. The Steering system must retain it's original location and operation, and must be un-assisted. Steering system components are free and may be strengthened, and a streering damper may be fitted. So as i see it there is nothing in the MSA Technical Regulations to prevent full hydro steer systems. If i'm wrong fire away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 quote blue book (F) Cross Country Events. 319. The Steering system must retain it's original location and operation, and must be un-assisted. Steering system components are free and may be strengthened, and a streering damper may be fitted. So as i see it there is nothing in the MSA Technical Regulations to prevent full hydro steer systems. If i'm wrong fire away Err I am not sure a vehicle with hydro steer could be descibed as having its steering in the origional location, operation and un-assisted, the purpose is to provide assisted steering, apart from the steering wheel is any orgional part used?, that said so could a beefed up power steering box or adding "normal" power steering to a vehicle that didn't origional have it. Haven't read the regulations in question so maybe I am interpreting it wrong. Have to admit that among the variious modifications hydro steer does seem to be the one that would give the least competetive advantage on its own, more an aid to make driving easier. So for purely off road vehicles not to sure why it would be banned indivdually unless you were trying to create a "standard" class. Does seem it is generally fitted though after bigger tyres have been fitted and made steering difficult so they often seem to go together, no reason why they have to though. Hydro steer can fail totally and leave you with no steering, I have had it happen on a turn and ended up driving straight into a wall at about 20mph with 100tonnes of truck behind me, bounced of the wall and the only real damage was to a tyre and wheel mind you that wasn't cheap, apparently a hose had failed and the system had pumped it self dry then when I went to steer nothing was left. Same thing could happen with a manual system I expect but has never actually happend to me fortunately, they normally give some warning they aren't health first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p38rr Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 If a club states NO Hydrosteer then where`s the problem? If you don`t like it then enter somebody else`s events or don`t have hydrosteer. If a club insists on road legal trucks i.e tax and MOT then thats what you have to provide. Its not a case of whats legal or not, just what the regs for a particular event say. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 (edited) If adding hydro stear wasn't an advantage why did you fit it, same goes for big tyres,difflocks, biggerwinches ect. If the moc did let in more mods what would u suggest,please bear in mind gound damage, and all the points these good people have raised!. Also who would be interested and comming along to enter,bearing in mind you may end up being beaten by a standardish suzi! I have a little clout in the moc and could raise any good points with the people on power ect. not propasing anything though, go on convince me! Why or what is the stigma attached to pure hydrosteer, and why is deemed to be so advantagous? Just read the Midland off road reg's and again "no pure hydrosteer", so whats the big advantage with being able to steer?, or is just the case of another organiser who cannot move with the times. Don't take it to heart MOR your just the one I saw today, I've been asking myself this question for some time now. I can understand Rear steer and/or Portals offer an avantage but not hydrosteer, was the same sort of stigma attached to servo assisted brakes or intermittant wipers when thay were introduced? Or is a case of we haven't got it on ours so you can't play? Maybe the reason is failure or lack of understanding, but surely the very fact it will turn cannot be seen as an avantage but surely a neccessity and most of the systems I have seen are stronger than the standard bendy rods type so safety surely cannot be penalised because if thats the case why not penalise and ban roll cages? If its the reason what happens if a hose fails, well I haven't seen one go yet but seen plenty of standard steering rods and track rod ends fail. So come organisers tell us your reasons. Edited October 12, 2009 by Daan see previous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I'll vouch for Boothy in the fact that there is very little advantage at all So it offers no advantage but people go to great lengths and expense to fit it..... hmmmmm... doesn't really add up does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon_s Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 If a club states NO Hydrosteer then where`s the problem? If you don`t like it then enter somebody else`s events or don`t have hydrosteer. If a club insists on road legal trucks i.e tax and MOT then thats what you have to provide. Its not a case of whats legal or not, just what the regs for a particular event say. End of story. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I do not drive mine on the road, for my own reasons of it handles like a pig. So why is that? Daan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Well Daan, Its got very soft springs, extended ProComps (nothing wrong with them I know), extended rose jointed trailing arms, Stuan Beadlocks, and normally about 5-8psi in the tyres, and considering myself as a responsible adult know that soft tyres and soft springs don't add up to a stable vehicle at speed, in the event of heavy braking or a hard swerve anything can happen. I have a brand new Toyota HiLux, the old Nissan 4.2 Patrol (me tow'er) and my wifes car and all are better suited, more comfortable and cheaper to use on the road. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Interesting topic, particularily as I'm torn on my new build being hydro assist or full hydro. The feelings expressed in the posts in this topic show that there are more than enough people wanting to be involved in a competition for lightly modified vehicles with the hope that it creates a more level playing field. For an organising club to acheive this they have to pick on things to allow and things to outlaw. I would argue that full hydro is an easy one to pick on as its isn't fitted to any competing vehicle as standard so therefore requires cash or skills and knowledge to fit. Thus you've outlawed something that some people can and some people can't have. Off road competitions are very simple in their rules, particularily challenges, compared to other forms of motorsport, for which we sould be thankful. Compare it to circuit racing where you find limits on engine mods, gearbox mods, moving suspension pick up points, roll cage pick up points, tyre manufacturer and size etc, and it could get a lot more complicated. Only by going down this route could a more level playing field be created. Even then you could find that a certain vehicle suddenly out performs all others (Zuk or C303..) My next vehicle will be built on a tight budget and will include all the nasty things 'clubman' doesn't like (like portals, 44s etc), but why should I worry if certain events or sites exclude me if that's what I want to build and there's still some events that cater for that kind of vehicle? Finally, I don't understand why full hydro shoudln't make a night and day difference to you steering in ruts, nosed down etc. My understanding of the systems come from boats, but running a 4 port obital and a full high presure system you should be able to engineer it to power through just about anything (including you steering arms, links etc!). Sure feed-back, self centring and 'straight ahead' will be lost, but who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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