Hardtop vs ragtop... oh and steering dampers.

[jmattley]

As I'm contemplating replacing the disco with a series with a TDi when the disco dies, what's everyones opinion on hard vs softop. I've heard that softops are quieter and warmer in good condition, which is believable as my hardtop 88 that I used to have was noisy as fook till I drove round without a roof. What's everyone opinion on em? I'd also fancya roll cage/bar as well.

Any thoughts or experiences?

Also... steering dampers ain't standard on series motors are they? How do you go about sticking one on?

Cheers!

_________________

[FridgeFreezer]

Rag tops are a bit less rattly and obviously rag conducts less heat away than ali does.

Steering damper - the bracket is about £10 and the damper is about £20, you may need a new steering link with the other end bracket on it, which is also around £10. Those prices are from memory as it was a looong time ago.

[jmattley]

Fair enough, so you'd recommend a ragtop then yeah? Do the steering dampers make a lot of difference or is it not really worth it?

[landmannnn]

I always found that ragtops were draughtier than hard tops.

[jmattley]

Fair enough, anyone else have any experiences of ragtops?

[David Sparkes]

Personal experience, no. Experience of reading about others, yes.

I read that a Fume Curtain is a very worthwhile addition, cutting down the draughts and reducing the volume of cold to be heated.

On the S2 Club Forum there isn't much talk about steering dampers, rather about how light and sensitive the standard S2 steering can be, IF all the swivels, TREs, and the relay, are in good condition.

Personally I suspect staying with standard wheels give a lot to help to good steering, as to go wider on a Series 2 means increasing the offset; otherwise you lose turning circle as the tyre hits the springs.

With the heavier (wider) tyre now offset from the 'correct' position a steering damper may be beneficial, but then if that is what someone wants, why start with an S2?

Not a criticism of your idea, merely an observation.

HTH

[skywalker482]

Personal experience, no. Experience of reading about others, yes.

I read that a Fume Curtain is a very worthwhile addition, cutting down the draughts and reducing the volume of cold to be heated.

On the S2 Club Forum there isn't much talk about steering dampers, rather about how light and sensitive the standard S2 steering can be, IF all the swivels, TREs, and the relay, are in good condition.

Personally I suspect staying with standard wheels give a lot to help to good steering, as to go wider on a Series 2 means increasing the offset; otherwise you lose turning circle as the tyre hits the springs.

With the heavier (wider) tyre now offset from the 'correct' position a steering damper may be beneficial, but then if that is what someone wants, why start with an S2?

Not a criticism of your idea, merely an observation.

HTH

[skywalker482]

I would agree with the fume curtain idea. I run a 110 with a full canvas all year and if fitted properly i.e. nice and taught and sitting in the door gutters properly (takes a bit of fettling) it is no more draughty than as a hard top but definately warmer especially with the fume curtain fitted but I would say it is warmer without the curtain too.

You do not have to buy a curtain either. For a few months before I got one i just hung a woolen blanket from the roll bar down behind my front two seats to see what difference it made, which was substantial. So when I had some spare cash I bought a proper one which was no better than the blanket....just looked better. Also you can have great fun in the summer and also sunny winter days too.....canvas all the way for me.......

Enjoy

Regards Jamie

[bill van snorkle]

It really depends on the type of terrain you mostly drive in.

I had ragtops when I lived in the more open country and warmer of Central Queensland where i regularly ran topless.. When I moved back down to the cooler wetter climes and began offroading in the forested areas of Victoria I kept ripping the ragtops on overhanging tree branches etc. Iwould go through a new top every year or so until I fitted a hardtop.There isn't one square inch of sheet metal on my hardtop that isn't heavily dented, grooved or scratched. The damage would easily account for about 15 replacement ragtops.

Bill

[sotal]

When I first got the series, the steering was so light that whenever I hit a bump the steering shot off in that direction - I bought a steering damper to put on (cost £14 IIRC) - I already had the bracket on the steering linkage, but not on the chassis.

Never got round to fitting it, and a few months later found out the king pin had too much play, when a couple of shims were removed it fixed it perfectly but since then the steering has been loads better and the damper isn't needed.

[BigSi110]

Our Series 3 88" is a soft top and we don't get any draughts with it, if it's fitted properly.

Can't complain about lack of warmth either as the heat soak keeps us warm and the heater ain't bad on a 36 year-old 2.25 engine.

I guess the only other consideration is security. We don't leave anything inside ours at all, but then we have no need to as he's a 3rd car.

I've only driven him ONCE with the top fully on and that was last Saturday amid all that rain we had. But apart from that he's never driven without at least the rear rolled up. Lovely!!

There's something deeply satisfying about driving an open-topped or partly open-topped Series. You MUST try it!

Steering damper? Haven't yet found the need for one, but we run standard wheels on correct 6.00 x 16 tyres.

[bill van snorkle]

Our Series 3 88" is a soft top and we don't get any draughts with it, if it's fitted properly.

Can't complain about lack of warmth either as the heat soak keeps us warm and the heater ain't bad on a 36 year-old 2.25 engine.

I guess the only other consideration is security. We don't leave anything inside ours at all, but then we have no need to as he's a 3rd car.

I've only driven him ONCE with the top fully on and that was last Saturday amid all that rain we had. But apart from that he's never driven without at least the rear rolled up. Lovely!!

There's something deeply satisfying about driving an open-topped or partly open-topped Series. You MUST try it!

Steering damper? Haven't yet found the need for one, but we run standard wheels on correct 6.00 x 16 tyres.

Sorry, a bit OT, but your post brought back a memory.A pristine series 2A on 6.00x16's and the old 6'' deep sill panels. I remember now how completely wrong they looked. Reminded me of a very fat lady with pencil thin legs wearing a three quarter length dress.

[HoggyN]

Fair enough, anyone else have any experiences of ragtops?

Yes. If it's fitted properly they are warmer and quieter than a hard top. I'd say drier too, because you don't get any condensation.

On the downside, there is little or no security. It's also worth bearing in mind that they don't last forever, although regular reproofing helps. Getting them on and off isn't a two minute job... getting them back on takes ages!

Steering damper? No need if you set up your swivels and relay properly.

[RobotMan]

I prefer my ragtop to the hard top, shame I have just destroyed it beyond repair! It reached the satge where it was too thin and perished to withstand any contact with bushes, branches etc whilst laning. I can't complain though as I have had it for over 15 years. You do fret less when parking a hard top motor in towns, not that landy locks are any more trouble to open than untying a rope but potentially more tempting. That said I've never had any bother and often just leave the sides rolled up anyway.

They are warmer and you don't get the hard top condensation drip or drumming! They look right on a Series too in my opinion.

I also have a bikini top for mine which is good for keeping the odd shower off yet being very open and is less prone to being damaged.

[Snagger]

The steering damper was factory fitted to some vehicles, like my SIII 109. It's a good idea off road as it would reduce the tendency of the steering to whip round when hitting ruts or stumps, etc, but I don't know how beneficial it is on road if the surface and vehicle are in good order.

Fitting after market wheels of wider spec (typically 7") normally reduces offset because of the way the wheel is constructed, not increases it, and thus moves the tyre away from the chassis, increasing available steering lock. They do make the steering heavier and increase the tendency to follow motorway ruts and road camber. They also increase the steering wander when a pothole or kerb is hit, so a steering damper may be beneficial to a road-going LR fitted with such wheels. This would, however, further increase the heaviness of the steering. I find my 109 to have perfectly acceptable steering with its damper, 235/85 tyres on 7x16" (+2" track) and Metro steering wheel (much smaller diameter than standard), but it's truly awful trying to parallel park or manoeuvre in tight spaces. It's almost unmanageable on the school run (we normally use the RRC for that), and PAS may have to be fitted when I upgrade to Defender axles (the swivel steering arm is shorter, which will further increase the steering gearing).

[Effortless]

Well,

I have experience of both, and each have their own pros and cons.

I like the security of the hard top, and I prefer it when I'm laning as Bill van Snorkel has suggested.

I prefer the look of the rag top, and find it warmer, less damp and less draughty. I don't have any door rubbers however, neither do I have a heater, but even in winter I will have the back of the tilt rolled up. If it's very cold, I will run the tilt fully closed, with windows and vents closed, and it's truly toasty inside.

I'll be running my rag top all the way through the winter this year.

Hopes this helps,

Effortless

[nickjaxe]

I have a hard and soft top but the soft top is now on all year round, as long as its not raining the back stays rolled up, and I love it but as others have said security is a prob,

I have just bought a tin of Thomson's brick seal to re-proof it as its starting to let water through but it is many years old.

Nick.

[RobotMan]

I have a hard and soft top but the soft top is now on all year round, as long as its not raining the back stays rolled up, and I love it but as others have said security is a prob,

I have just bought a tin of Thomson's brick seal to re-proof it as its starting to let water through but it is many years old.

Nick.

Worst thing I ever did was use Thomson's on my canvas! It prevents the fibres wetting and swelling so you get a dry canvas and a wet head! I take mine to a place that washes horse rugs. It comes out clean and waterproof for about £15, bargain. They where reluctant to do it initially because of the windows possibly becoming hard to see through but they actually came out cleaner.

[Dark green 90]

Fabsil is the stuff for canvas waterproofing

Prefer canvas hands down to hard top, truck cab canvas even better

[Quagmire]

I have a soft top on both my series2 and my 90.

The series 2 just pootles around town now, but was my daily drive for some years- whilst the 90 spends its life hacking up and down the motorway... I now know this about canvas:

-Its warm, and waterproof if you look after it.

-Clean off bird poo STRAIGHT AWAY!!! it eats through canvas like nobodys business. Ask how i know.

-You can fit all kinds of odd sized things in a ragtop landrover, simply by rolling up the panel that happens to get in the way.

-Your landy will have less body roll with a ragtop.

-At slows speeds your landy will seem quieter than the equivalent hardtop.

-At high speeds, all you will hear is the canvas flapping. Imagine being in a tent in a 70mph wind...

-On the motorway, you can hear other cars as they come past you. A good help with your blind spot if you have van sides...

-A wet canvas goes tight like a drum and therefore flaps less than a dry one.

-A plasticised "rip stop" stylee top will not go tight at all in the wet.

-People will think you are in the army and small boys will point at you in amazement as you drive past.

-Anyone who hasn't ridden in a canvas topped car or been in a tent will always get into your landy, and if its raining their first reaction will be to poke the roof "doesnt the water come through?" It does now...

-Summer driving with the side rolled up keeps you nice and shady, but still gives you the awesome breeze too. Perfect. Driving on a summers evening with no roof is even better

You cant beat a ragtop really.

[mattdrummond99]

i had ragtop when bought mine, it was a bit tatty and leaked a bit, and i had to empty tools out of back every night, and was paranoid to park in town with stuff in it.

so i bought hardtop, lockable etc etc,

but it is noisier! and roof drips on you when condensation forms! but i prefer! its slightly heavier to lift off when you want convertable!

truck top even noisier, tried that too!

[dave88sw]

I love the look of a soft top but thats about all, when you actually think about it they're completely impractical.

They arent easy to take off, theyre easy to break into, they leak if not looked after, take an age to fit properly etc etc etc

A hardtop has the one important feature for me - security. However, everybody fits them as a bare metal roof and expects them to be warm and dry, it aint gonna happen, it will condensate etc etc.

When i had my roof off i lay it upside down and glued camping/roll mats to it with carpet glue, trimmed to fit neatly round the edges etc, not only does it look quite smart (nice grey mats) it stops condensation and keeps it warm.

Hardtop with improvised head lining gets my vote

Dave

[Quagmire]

To be honest- even a hardtop isnt secure really. I guess it does put off the opportunist thief though, or kids mucking about...

Just dont leave your laptop on the passenger seat!

[Swifty oh no]

I have had both and a soft top for me every time.

Usually my top comes of around early April and goes back on around the end of October but even then I have the back rolled up most of the winter.

As for security I bolted an ammo box fitted with a couple of padlocks through the clasps to the rear tub floor immediately behind the bulkhead for tools and a few spare bits and pieces. Used to have a long low one one mounted to the top of the front bumper as well for a while for other stuff, tow ropes, big hammer etc.

[Phil Hancock]

Fitting a steering damper is a waste of time unless you are doing a lot of off roading as on the road it will make the steering a bit stiffer, less inclined to or wont fully self center, i took mine back off.