Challenge truck

[will_warne]

60-100k on a chuffin buggy? even i could build one cheaper than that!

I appreciate that some people have no idea where to start building a truck/buggy/offroader and therefore they pay WAY over the odds for a relatively simple machine. These same people are also won over by orange paint.

Jez is right, who on earth has that much money to spend on a truck? i mean you have to be seriously well off.

I quite understand why Jez doesnt post on this forum much anymore, same reason i have stopped coming here quite so often.

Simple - 1000+ hours at £50 per hour is £50+k. Add a load of high end components and costs add up fast. Even doing things yourself will result in a sizable bill (trust me, I know). Jez, I remember you saying something along the lines of if someone asked me to build them a Mouse it would cost around £80k (I can't remember the exact figure but it was in that ball park). I'm not surprised and I don't think it's expensive for what it is.

Racing is not a cheap sport. You can cut some costs by being clever but, ultimately, people will spend as much as they can to gain an advantage.

Oh, and Tony, the reason my build takes a while is because I work in the City to pay the bills and building only really happens at weekends. I have people who've offered plenty of assistance but this is my car designed and built as a one man band. It's not perfect but it works for me.

[red90 driver]

Well ladies...

After asking a simple question at the beginning of this topic, it amused\scared the hell out of me to see talk of 60k+ trucks!

We're looking at spending more like 8k! And a good chunk of that is paying for the framework to be made and welded to the disco chassis....

Admittedly, we have the ARB's, shafts and winches to begin, but even so, for those of us living in the factory working class world, then 60K+ is like paying the mortgage off!

The likes of Bathtub and others who can afford to splash that kind of money, it's good to see what can be done and gives the likes of us something to dream about. And if that kind of money gets you a truck that can compete at an international level, then thats fine. We can afford to build a truck for the grass roots UK winching sscene, and thats what we're happy doing. Each to their own.

Back to the original question for one moment - we're going 100" spaceframe running a megasquirted 3.9 V8 auto, on Fox airshox, with 35" Pitbulls/Simex, maybe with Type R winches, maybe stay with the 8274's!

Basic and functional, does exactly what it says on the tin! (Alright, not that basic but certainly not pushing the boundaries!)

[Lara]

I would also add that as someone who spends night and day running a company that restores and builds cars, 80k is so easily gone that it is laughable!

I have almost that in my 90!! and that was almost all done by me at NO LABOR COST!

I have a spreadsheet to prove it (unfortunately)

We have inquiries on almost a daily rate talking to us about restoring their car and they get told about 200k for a full nut and bolt restoration on the average type open sport tourer! now just remember that the car does not know it's an Alvis or and Alfa!! the work is about the same!! It could also be a buggy build!! ok less work and less finish needed but just sit down add it up and then treble it for a realistic figure!!

Engine 5K

Box 2K

T box 2k

Axles 15K (you can do it cheaper in parts but then you have a lot more labor to add in and then reliability)

Portal boxes 5K (as above but I bet /jez has a pretty penny invested in all his work on his axles)

Chassis 5K finished

Shocks 1K

Rad and coolers 1K

Links and rose joints 2K

Gigglepin winches x 2 6K

Centre + PTO winch 1K

Tyres and wheels 2K

These are just rough estimates from my head and you can bet your life they are low!

So we are already popping on for 50K on parts and we haven't even thought about Dash, lights, controls etc or one cent for work!!

And then add in problems to sit and think about, work around, modifications to make when the plan slightly changes etc! You will not get rich in this game, believe me!! without ripping people off, "in this game - The only way to a small fortune is to start with a big one!!"

Lara

Vehicles like the Humbug and Mouse are spectacular creatures and no one should under estimate the cost of building them!! You pay for these special things one way or another! be it your own working hours directly or your own working hours to earn the money to pay someone better qualified in that field.

That was my biggest problem when I started LMB. You just can't get your head round the cost!! I still struggle to believe it now. and that's 16 years and countless projects further on!!

[Happyoldgit]

I'm a just sitting here reading..

...and watching..

...as are the other mods.

[landmannnn]

I'm a just sitting here reading..

...and watching..

...as are the other mods.

Sorry, couln't resist

[Boothy]

Build your motor to suit your budget and your vision of what you want, don't suffer from peer pressure, and more than anything enjoy it, does it matter what wheelbase it is ? it will never be the right one.

Good luck

[dollythelw]

wow, well that was an entertaining reaction, shiny, very shiny

Pete - bring on the playground name calling if you like, if it makes you feel better then have a field day, you can call us disney or bunch of spanners or make references to biscuits, there must be so many more... its satire so biting I can barely take it... please, show mercy

Petal was 88", Mouse was a bit longer, Fridge likes 109 (he's sick)

Kim likes 69, but doesnt limit himself to gender....... or species come to think about it

Sounds like a plan Nick - good luck with the build

[bathtub]

wow, well that was an entertaining reaction, shiny, very shiny

Pete - bring on the playground name calling if you like, if it makes you feel better then have a field day, you can call us disney or bunch of spanners or make references to biscuits, there must be so many more... its satire so biting I can barely take it... please, show mercy

Petal was 88", Mouse was a bit longer, Fridge likes 109 (he's sick)

Kim likes 69, but doesnt limit himself to gender....... or species come to think about it

Sounds like a plan Nick - good luck with the build

Still answer on the weight then

[Guest noggy]

I would also add that as someone who spends night and day running a company that restores and builds cars, 80k is so easily gone that it is laughable!

I have almost that in my 90!! and that was almost all done by me at NO LABOR COST!

I have a spreadsheet to prove it (unfortunately)

We have inquiries on almost a daily rate talking to us about restoring their car and they get told about 200k for a full nut and bolt restoration on the average type open sport tourer! now just remember that the car does not know it's an Alvis or and Alfa!! the work is about the same!! It could also be a buggy build!! ok less work and less finish needed but just sit down add it up and then treble it for a realistic figure!!

Engine 5K

Box 2K

T box 2k

Axles 15K (you can do it cheaper in parts but then you have a lot more labor to add in and then reliability)

Portal boxes 5K (as above but I bet /jez has a pretty penny invested in all his work on his axles)

Chassis 5K finished

Shocks 1K

Rad and coolers 1K

Links and rose joints 2K

Gigglepin winches x 2 6K

Centre + PTO winch 1K

Tyres and wheels 2K

These are just rough estimates from my head and you can bet your life they are low!

So we are already popping on for 50K on parts and we haven't even thought about Dash, lights, controls etc or one cent for work!!

And then add in problems to sit and think about, work around, modifications to make when the plan slightly changes etc! You will not get rich in this game, believe me!! without ripping people off, "in this game - The only way to a small fortune is to start with a big one!!"

Lara

Vehicles like the Humbug and Mouse are spectacular creatures and no one should under estimate the cost of building them!! You pay for these special things one way or another! be it your own working hours directly or your own working hours to earn the money to pay someone better qualified in that field.

That was my biggest problem when I started LMB. You just can't get your head round the cost!! I still struggle to believe it now. and that's 16 years and countless projects further on!!

sorry, but this truck DOES NOT need to be so expensive, thats absolutely ridiculous. You have bought everything new because its easy and looks good. Its easy enough to shop around and you can build a truck for 25k.

volvo/mog portals 1.5k then 1k on upgrades.

Chassis/spaceframe 1k if you make friends with people with tube benders

springs and shocks 1k

engine 1k upgrades 0.2k

gearbox and tranny 2k depends a lot on engine chosen.

Rad and coolers 1K

Links and rose joints 2K

Gigglepin winches x 2 6K

Centre + PTO winch 1K

Appreciated labour is the absolute killer, but quite often it is just plain faster to do it yourself.

And in my opinion building the truck is the best bit, seeing how different things effect things in a race etc

i live to be oily and dusty from lying under my landrover, it smells so damn good.

just my 2p

Tyres and wheels 2K

[bathtub]

sorry, but this truck DOES NOT need to be so expensive, thats absolutely ridiculous. You have bought everything new because its easy and looks good. Its easy enough to shop around and you can build a truck for 25k.

volvo/mog portals 1.5k then 1k on upgrades.

Chassis/spaceframe 1k if you make friends with people with tube benders

springs and shocks 1k

engine 1k upgrades 0.2k

gearbox and tranny 2k depends a lot on engine chosen.

Rad and coolers 1K

Links and rose joints 2K

Gigglepin winches x 2 6K

Centre + PTO winch 1K

Appreciated labour is the absolute killer, but quite often it is just plain faster to do it yourself.

And in my opinion building the truck is the best bit, seeing how different things effect things in a race etc

i live to be oily and dusty from lying under my landrover, it smells so damn good.

just my 2p

Tyres and wheels 2K

Totally agree could be built cheaper if you did it yourself & yes use 2nd hand parts.

But if like me you only have 1 day a week spare after doing 14hr days at work & have a family what do you do not build a truck??

Also what if you dont have the skills to build it or arnt interested in the majority of the build ?Personally i am a carpenter by trade so reasonably skilled with my pinkys but templating ,cutting & fitting the body panels was the most boring 2 days of my life

Love being involved but as i say when it comes to time i have a very limited calendar which i choose to compete in the truck not lay under it. That was the main reason to have a properly built new truck with new ,tried & tested parts so i dont waste my free time or competion time mending it as much.

The Bathtub i had for 15+ years & spent probably as much on the over the time as i have on the new buggy but hopefuly the new Buggy wont spend most its life in the garage {well garage in bits}.

But you say why buy new ??? Ok if you pay to have it fitted etc then do you have it overhauled 1st then fitted if you want reliability. Also if some dont buy new what would you buy 2nd hand??

Please tell me where i can get a set of Alloy 3 piece split rims & 44 Boggers for £2k please i need a new set.

You also got no,

Electrics.

Navigation aids

Fuel cells

Fire Ex system

No winch ropes

Hoses & fittings etc

Painting.

Also what have you just build that specced car to do , Fine at that budget for a 2 day challenge but would you take it 2k across Europe with all secong hand bits, basic suspension ,no safety kit & race across a desert or huge remote forest ??

Horses for courses.

But you cant forget about the labour bill on a build if you are going to critise those who do.

If you {im not saying you should if you enjoy building it}got an evening / weekend job or did overtime etc & paid someone to do the job it would cost exactly the same as everone elses.

Should i shudder at you maybe that you spent £40k on a extension that i could get my guys to build at cost/ loose it through the buisniness & it cost me probably £10k if that officially???

For the record my Buggy has cost nothing like Jez etc have said .It would cost £100K plus but like him also we got some very good support so to say.

Along with the Engine & transmission being 2nd hand

Stak Box is new but on trail with them.

Bespoke Portals are on trial & testing etc etc.

Lots ofbits come from the BathTub ,Wheels tyres ,wiches etc .

BUT they all had to be paid for at sometime.

Love you all & this Great Country we call England

Where free speech & thought rule & opression isnt encouraged.

[white90]

That was a good read.

you can only build a truck to your liking if you have the skills/facilities and then the ££

you have to do what you can to either earn the ££ or do the work yourself

my 90 is a million miles from the trucks of Jez/Pete/Ced/Stefans etc but all in all including buying the 90 is well in excess of £23k and is now probably worth 10k if I sold the bits and then the 90 or what was left.

I can't fabricate or even have the vision of the people on here who can, but funnily like Pete

mentioned I just built an extension on the house all myself for less than 10k the estimates to get in done were over 30k, if you can then do if you can't then pay simple really.

and to finish my 90 weighs 2180kg all ready to go albeit far less glamorous places than the others vehicle mentioned above, but I just went and collected a winters worth of logs in a trailer and the 90

[will_warne]

Pete, you are bang on there - you can do the sums and conclude a high spec truck is going to be quite cheap however fit and finish can cost a fortune. For example, safety items like seats, fuel cell, harness and fire suppression have cost/will cost me about £3k! It depends what you're trying to build but I'd not be prepared to compromise on safety and I believe fire suppression is probably the most important thing to spend money on in an expensive vehicle as fire is pretty much the only thing that can totally destroy one of these cars. Even after a big accident you'd hope to be able to salvage an awful lot of the expensive parts.

[Lara]

A lot of sensible comments in the last few posts!

And remember one thing that I come across weekly!

People get put off by the cost and criticize the price of a professional build. But also remember when building for someone else, the finish should be perfect, the result without failure, no warranty issues etc etc, all the things we forgive our selves when doing a home build !

We see many many home restorations come to our doors and although there are one or two great jobs, the reality is that most are not fit to Enter the workshop let alone Leave it!

Take the old Bathtub as an example of Pete's "home build" It did it's job, and was built for a similar job as the new "Humbug" and during the "extended" build, as Pete says, it probably cost the same as the new one. But now look at the new one! Which would you rather have!!

And the bigger question, which would you want to pay for??

Lara

[plasticbadger]

Straying dangerously off topic, but professional builds do cost a lot of money, but the standard of fit and finish is the end result.

A friend of mine restores classic cars and builds racing cars. A guy came to him to restore his father's 1978 Ford Escort 1300GL, value at the time about £200. Following a £20,000 restoration the thing was way better than Ford built! I've restored a number of cars and never produced something of that quality, or finished detail, it was lovely. However the insurance company later said - £20K 1978 Escort, you're taking the p~@s. End result though, the owner was over the moon! He could never produce something of that standard and he had the peace of mind that everything was new or reconditioned. With care the thing will last for ever.

Pardon my ramblings, but the moral is that for some people having the peace of mind of a professional job, with all quality components, is worth what ever it takes. Pete has clearly worked hard and paid for his build by working hard at his job. Others work hard building their trucks themselves with the obvious cost saving. Very few who build themselves build to the quality of HOFS, from what I've seen.

Each to their own!

[Lara]

Very true!

Now what was the question

Lara

[nicks90]

God there is sooooo much jealously going on in this thread. Pack it in the lot of you!

Yes i;m insanely jealous that i cant (and probably never will) be able to afford to either - pay 60K for a pro built truck - invest the time and 20K in a self build truck.

Us mere mortals would love 60k to pay off a sizeable chunk of our mortgages and certainly not invest it in a toy.

BUT, and here`s the big BUT

if you are in a position to do so - through hard work / skill / nice inheritance / lucky lotto - then why the hell not!

We dont all sit around the front gates of racetracks swearing at those people who can afford to spunk simillar money on a porsche for weekend fun days, or at airfields yelling obsenities at weekend light aircraft pilots who spend twice as much as that on a little cessna, or at every marina in the country stuffed to the gills with stupidly expensive boats that get used twice a year..........

So why is Pete - and others who can afford it - getting such a load of verbal on here? Its there money, its their hobby, let them spend their money.

And if you must be totally jealous, then you can always fall back on the theory that they need such good trucks to make up for poor driving ability

Although the next time i hire a chippy to do some work for me, I'll know the buggers are charging far too much money....

[Speedy_Gonzales]

Get yerself a 110 nick and put it on a diet

[Speedy_Gonzales]

88" fun fun fun - If you have the cash we can also build you one if you want

Lovin this thing, looks ace

[bathtub]

why is Pete - and others who can afford it - getting such a load of verbal on here? Its there money, its their hobby, let them spend their money.

And if you must be totally jealous, then you can always fall back on the theory that they need such good trucks to make up for poor driving ability

Funny that when Jim at Gigglepin asked what & why i was building my comment was

"rather than improve my driving ill just get a better car !"

PS its 60 chippys overcharging not 1

[FridgeFreezer]

Just re-read this, the internet is a funny place - an argument seems to have appeared out of nowhere

Flirting with Jez about weight aside (for info, you're both fat b*st*rds), the only person giving Pete any real verbal about the price of his build is Noggy, and I don't know how many cars he's built so he could be an unsung genius...

Some of us have time, some of us have money, and some just sit round making excuses that they don't have either and so could never possibly join in. Sometimes it works out better to do the overtime and pay someone else to build your truck / build your extension than take time off and DIY it.

We've raced against stuff costing $1m which was up against stuff built for less than the price of a single bogger. As with most forms of racing, 10% of the money gets you 90% of the way, and with a bit of effort and teamwork you can stretch that.

Oh and ref the original question(s) - 109" and 2080kg

[McS Junior]

Flirting with Jez about weight aside (for info, you're both fat b*st*rds)

For my money, John is right on the money with his comments. I have no strong feelings either way about 'built or bought', at the end of the day if you've got the money or skills then you're going to use it/them.

What I do have an issue with is these very expensive buggies, that are now becoming more commonplace, clearing up at local events against relatively standard 90's. Now, this could be argued as the fault of the event organiser's (thats not a dig at anyone, for god's sake lets not go down that path again... ) for not separating them into different classes. However, from my point of view, if you've got the ability (through skills or money) to build an international class truck, then you should be competing on the international scene. Transylvannia, Croatia, KOTH, Ladoga, Vepskii Les etc etc are where these trucks will really be put to the test, not slab common! So come on fella's, instead of having a manhood comparison debate on the internet, let's see you out there mixing up with Europe's finest and we'll let the driving do the talking.

Oh, and to answer the original post , I dont think there's a right or wrong answer. Wheelbase is a very personal thing, defined by what best suits your driving style and what events you want to do. Weight-wise, as light as possible!

Ross

[simon_s]

What I do have an issue with is these very expensive buggies, that are now becoming more commonplace, clearing up at local events against relatively standard 90's.

Commonplace??? I can think of 3.... 2 of which haven't been used to a great extent in the UK.

[bathtub]

. However, from my point of view, if you've got the ability (through skills or money) to build an international class truck, then you should be competing on the international scene. Transylvannia, Croatia, KOTH, Ladoga, Vepskii Les etc etc are where these trucks will really be put to the test, not slab common! So come on fella's, instead of having a manhood comparison debate on the internet, let's see you out there mixing up with Europe's finest and we'll let the driving do the talking.

Oh, and to answer the original post , I dont think there's a right or wrong answer. Wheelbase is a very personal thing, defined by what best suits your driving style and what events you want to do. Weight-wise, as light as possible!

Ross

Funny that Both Jez & i are doing just that Ladoga ,Croatia etc .We both avoid the majority of Uk events anyway. Most of the time our trucks are less competitive at small events anyway due to size.

As to light as possible that also depends on power & terrain.

Too bigger tyres & you will lack the friction to climb hills unless then you run 1000hp like the Icelandic guys

Occasionally a light 90 on Simex will drive up a hard grassy hill i am putting full power down with 44s. Mind you it is very occassionally

[FridgeFreezer]

FWIW I think grumbling about certain trucks at events is easily solved by organisers setting appropriate classes.

As for which events to enter, meh, enter what you like - if you had a big bad buggy there wouldn't be much challenge or satisfaction from turning up at a clubman punch challenge and wiping the floor if everyone else is in daily drivers on MT's.

[PITBULL]

soon people will be saying what you bought a gigglepin winch im gona make my own out of cardboard