Ham Fisted "Mechanics"

[MartinK]

Well, I did the first part of the service of my faithful Discovery TD5 today - the engine oil...

Rant starts... First I made sure the oil (main) oil filter could be loosened and it was fine. Armed with 17mm wrench and old kitchen bowl I popped under the car. Could I shift the oil drain? I checked the torque setting it SHOULD have been at (23nm). Eventually I had a tommy bar over 60 cm long, and just managed to break the tension. Fortunately it did come out without damaging the threads. Even with a neat-fitting, decent quality 6-sided socket, I managed to round the head, so nipped to the LR garage and bought a new sump bolt (part # TRL100040 if you ever need it!).

With oil draining I did the centrifugal filter. Shock! One of the bolts had been so tight, it had stripped it's thread. Fortunately it was the side furthest from the engine, so it's really easy to put a slightly longer bolt in, and a nut underneath - a fix almost as good as original.

Using my torque wrench, I re-fastened the 3 bolts to correct torque... Some of these garages must employ neanderthal idiots as "mechanics".

As I have owned the Disco from new, I know exactly who has done this - as they have done all my servicing for the last 3 years. They obviously don;t use a torque wrench!

Needless to say I will be doing my own basic servicing fron now on...Bloody Bodgers!

Gearbox, Diffs and Transfer Box next time - think I'll buy a couple of new drain bolts just in case!!!!!

[cipx2]

The key element when you want to torque the sump plug to the value in the manuals is to use a new sealing washer.

Since many of workshops don't bother to change it, they have to tight the plug further to make sure it won't leak.

[MartinK]

The key element when you want to torque the sump plug to the value in the manuals is to use a new sealing washer.

Since many of workshops don't bother to change it, they have to tight the plug further to make sure it won't leak.

Interesting re the sump washer. Obviously I did put a new sump plug washer on (I ordered a filter kit which came with all washers/seals) - also some Mobil 1 (wouldn;t normally put such an expensive oil in but I got it for a good price).

Just hacks me off we pay for a "professional" service from a mechanic, and then you find corners have been cut, and work is ham-fisted...

I can make a mess of someones car for £35 + vat per hour!!!!!

Rant over again!

[reb78]

Same story everywhere you turn these days. Good trustworthy mechanics seem hard to come by. When you find one, never let them move or retire! I had the timing belt changed on my old TD defender before i started to do all this stuff myself and when i got it back, the crank bolt was so loose i could undo it with such ease its a wnder it didnt drop off. I've had garages round off bolts, fit wrong brakes, mess up the tracking cos they dont know how to use the equipment, forget to shut the bonnet properly (so you only notice when on the main road). Perhaps the worst one was a 'repair' garage used by admiral insurance to repair my BMW after pothole damage to the wheels and tyres - they took 5 days to change two tyres and failed to notice that the rims were visibly bent!!!! I can rant about this forever, so i sympathise with you. The answer is to pick up the manual and never ever let anyone else ever touch your car again!!!!

[matt bristol]

Same story everywhere you turn these days. Good trustworthy mechanics seem hard to come by. When you find one, never let them move or retire! I had the timing belt changed on my old TD defender before i started to do all this stuff myself and when i got it back, the crank bolt was so loose i could undo it with such ease its a wnder it didnt drop off. I've had garages round off bolts, fit wrong brakes, mess up the tracking cos they dont know how to use the equipment, forget to shut the bonnet properly (so you only notice when on the main road). Perhaps the worst one was a 'repair' garage used by admiral insurance to repair my BMW after pothole damage to the wheels and tyres - they took 5 days to change two tyres and failed to notice that the rims were visibly bent!!!! I can rant about this forever, so i sympathise with you. The answer is to pick up the manual and never ever let anyone else ever touch your car again!!!!

I couldn't agree more, had a car serviced once and they forgot to tighten the whell nuts! Damage repair to a door (insurance approved repair) and there was a list as long as your arm ending in the window fell out! Luckily I've found a local mobile mechanic that is cheap and really good, had a cam belt and water pump chaged on my Seat (main dealers charge in excess of £400 despite it being a recall item) and he charged me under £200.

[mobyone]

yup, had a 405 tdi once, had it serviced. drove off only to get 3 miles and the engine blew up. the garage put 1 litre of oil in it! the apprentice did the job and nobody even bothered to check his work.

td5's are not cheap to replace, so mechanically simple jobs i would do myself too. servicing now you have done some will only get easier with practice, and mobile mechanics are a godsend if you find a good one. most aa/rac engineers are good so if you see one sitting around, ask him if he does mechanics in his off time. i found the answer is more often than not yes. just a chat to him will tell if he knows what he is talking about.

richard

[Ally V8]

Its easy to blame garages for everything,but the truth is they simply dont have time to set up a torque wrench to tighten every nut and bolt - your service bill would double if they did.TD5 sump plugs are a pain in the backside for going up tight - esp when the owner leaves the car well beyond the service interval.Freelander 1 IRD level plugs go up tight on their own and are terrible to get out,Disco 3 wheel nuts do the same.The 2 oil rotor housing bolts on TD5's often bring out the threads with them - I've had it happen at the first service,esp bad on cars that sit around rather than having daily use.

If I could find tech's who could do all the work in factory times,using every last torque setting and be 100% in their diagnosis of "intermittent faults" they would all have a job,the world is flat and there is no credit crunch.Its a piece of p-ss running a garage.

[BogMonster]

If I could find tech's who could do all the work in factory times,using every last torque setting and be 100% in their diagnosis of "intermittent faults" they would all have a job,the world is flat and there is no credit crunch.Its a piece of p-ss running a garage.

+1 here ... but it is one of life's inevitabilities that everybody else's job looks easier when viewed from the outside

[reb78]

Its easy to blame garages for everything,but the truth is they simply dont have time to set up a torque wrench to tighten every nut and bolt - your service bill would double if they did.TD5 sump plugs are a pain in the backside for going up tight - esp when the owner leaves the car well beyond the service interval.Freelander 1 IRD level plugs go up tight on their own and are terrible to get out,Disco 3 wheel nuts do the same.The 2 oil rotor housing bolts on TD5's often bring out the threads with them - I've had it happen at the first service,esp bad on cars that sit around rather than having daily use.

If I could find tech's who could do all the work in factory times,using every last torque setting and be 100% in their diagnosis of "intermittent faults" they would all have a job,the world is flat and there is no credit crunch.Its a piece of p-ss running a garage.

Thats rubbish. Pay a 'proffessional' and you expect the job done properly not some half arsed job that screws up your motor. You put your life in the hands of whoever services your vehicles so 'I didnt have time' to check the torque on the wheel nuts and oops a wheels fallen off but never mind you didnt pay me to check i'd done it properly just doesnt wash.

Sure the techs arent going to get the diagnosos right all of the time, but thats different to not doing a proper job when the work is undertaken.

[BogMonster]

Un-rubbish. I have never used a torque wrench on my own vehicle and oddly my wheels do not fall off. Most people who pick up a spanner regularly are more than capable of doing up most nuts and bolts and judging about the right torque level without needing a torque wrench. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be a mechanic, like most things people who blindly trust instruments without having a clue about what they are actually doing is usually not the safest option when the instrument doesn't work.

If it is a torque sensitive item, or there is a real risk of stripping the thread, head bolts and manifold bolts into an alloy head for example, then yes use one every time, and there is certainly a strong argument for saying you should use them on safety critical items like wheel nuts when it is somebody else's vehicle. Show me somebody who says they always use a torque wrench on door hinge screws and bottom shock absorber nuts and I'll show you a liar...

[reb78]

Un-rubbish. I have never used a torque wrench on my own vehicle and oddly my wheels do not fall off. Most people who pick up a spanner regularly are more than capable of doing up most nuts and bolts and judging about the right torque level without needing a torque wrench. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be a mechanic, like most things people who blindly trust instruments without having a clue about what they are actually doing is usually not the safest option when the instrument doesn't work.

If it is a torque sensitive item, or there is a real risk of stripping the thread, head bolts and manifold bolts into an alloy head for example, then yes use one every time, and there is certainly a strong argument for saying you should use them on safety critical items like wheel nuts when it is somebody else's vehicle. Show me somebody who says they always use a torque wrench on door hinge screws and bottom shock absorber nuts and I'll show you a liar...

You're missing my point. You pay good money to have a job done, you dont expect to come to find things overtightened, threads sheared, bolts rounded, bits dropping off because they were incorrectly fitted, the wrong parts fitted/wrongly adjusted, trim missing whatever, all for the sake of using the correct tool or reading the right paragraph in the manual before doing the job. Then you get given the excuse you paid me to do the bare minimum so thats what i did. If as the manager of a garage you feel the hourly rates are too low, put them up rather than compromise quality of service or safety, dont tell me you dont charge enough to do a proper job - customers will keep coming back. There is no excuse for the shoddy workmanship i come across so frequently these days which often simply comes down to laziness.

[Giles tout terrain]

If you have the choice of a garage charging a varying labour rate between £45 a hour ranging compleatly through to main dealers charging upto £120 a hour

Where would you go?

Most main dealers work using apprentices doing servicing all why still getting upto £120 a hour for someone there paying £4 a hour

They work on bonus schemes encouring speed because A. the customer can't for a second live without there car for more than 20 seconds! and B. there trying to make money in a extremly cut throat weld of the motor trade!

I'm not making excuses for believed bad workmanship but people who don't understand the job and whats involved because they do a bit of diy servicing would find it very hard to run a garage.

Factory times are ridiculous and mostly complealty undoable on most occasions.

A range rover tdv8 sport has to have the body removed from the chassis to change the turbo Land rover say you can do this in a very short time if i remember correctly. The target time is compleatly stupid and can't be done unless like land rover when they calculated the time they had a brand new vehicle every tool to hand the parts there etc etc etc.

Try doing that on a 6 month old car!

I don't work in a mechanical workshop but i run a "Repair workshop"

Where we do a estimate for body repair for a insurance company, you look at a job and work out say it will take 20 hours at £35 a hour,

A insurance engineer turns up taps a few buttons on his computer and says that Thatcham times you only get 9.4 hours to do the job and they can only pay you £28 a hour, You can argue the toss and maybe get a cpl more hours or another £1 a hour but you then decide if you want to do the job and work and pay the bills or say no because another garage will do it for that price.

The customer has no understanding of this procedure and still expects a FREE courtesy car which is paid for by the garage (which come out of the profit if any of the job) and they also want the car back to pristine condition in 30 seconds time without any problems.

I rang a plumber 6 weeks ago to do my heating as its broken and they still don't turn up now if i was fixing his van and wanted it more than 2 hours i would be causing him a pain!

The motor trade is cut throat and people don't really understand it!

Rant over

[Ally V8]

Thats rubbish. Pay a 'proffessional' and you expect the job done properly not some half arsed job that screws up your motor. You put your life in the hands of whoever services your vehicles so 'I didnt have time' to check the torque on the wheel nuts and oops a wheels fallen off but never mind you didnt pay me to check i'd done it properly just doesnt wash.

Sure the techs arent going to get the diagnosos right all of the time, but thats different to not doing a proper job when the work is undertaken.

As you are in Hertfordshire its unlikely you will ever need my services,this really pleases me as I doubt anyone could service or repair your cars to the standard you feel is necessary.

This forum is becoming populated by people who either want to show off how bloody clever they are or just to have a good moan.

Not very helpful,not much to find interesting.

[reb78]

As you are in Hertfordshire its unlikely you will ever need my services,this really pleases me as I doubt anyone could service or repair your cars to the standard you feel is necessary.

This forum is becoming populated by people who either want to show off how bloody clever they are or just to have a good moan.

Not very helpful,not much to find interesting.

I have a garage i do use and i am perfectly happy with them thanks so i shant be requiring your services. The garage i use is a family run business and they work to high standards without excuses. If something goes wrong and it is their fault they are honest about it and fix it. If it is just wear and tear and something breaks in the course of fixing another problem i pay for it. If they are unable to get something finished on time because they take the time to do it properly they ring me and tell me and i happily leave my car there another day in the knowledge the job will be done properly. As a result they are always very busy and their business is thriving because people go back there time and time again. The same wont be said for somewhere that turns out shoddy work and results in people needing to have a rant and moan on the forum to releive their stress.

My point was do a job properly and if you cant or dont have time to then dont bother taking peoples money to attempt it in the first place (i'm not saying you do this, just that plenty of garages that seem happy to these days).

[Ally V8]

My garage is a little different to most,in that 50% of its work is for other garages - about 50 of them in total,ranging from one man bands to a large multimake maindealership.Only a handful of them try to cut corners - its easy to pick them out.The large majority of them take pride in their work and genuinely go to great lengths to get it right.(Its the sales mob that are the ones that want to cut corners)

My own customer base is very varied,some are close neighbours,others travel a long way - I have one customer who brings two 110's around 120 miles to me for servicing etc.Many of them have become good friends over many years so I must do something right - even though I NEVER use a torque wrench on wheel nuts or sump plugs,nor do I need to pick up three spanners before I find the one that fits.Things do go wrong,VERY ocassionally - and hand goes up,job is sorted out.

I just want to make the point that the garage trade is more honest and trustworthy than is so often made out to be,esp in the LR world where most people involved have their own LR's or are into some kind of off road activities - so its not just a job to them.

[reb78]

My garage is a little different to most,in that 50% of its work is for other garages - about 50 of them in total,ranging from one man bands to a large multimake maindealership.Only a handful of them try to cut corners - its easy to pick them out.The large majority of them take pride in their work and genuinely go to great lengths to get it right.(Its the sales mob that are the ones that want to cut corners)

My own customer base is very varied,some are close neighbours,others travel a long way - I have one customer who brings two 110's around 120 miles to me for servicing etc.Many of them have become good friends over many years so I must do something right - even though I NEVER use a torque wrench on wheel nuts or sump plugs,nor do I need to pick up three spanners before I find the one that fits.Things do go wrong,VERY ocassionally - and hand goes up,job is sorted out.

I just want to make the point that the garage trade is more honest and trustworthy than is so often made out to be,esp in the LR world where most people involved have their own LR's or are into some kind of off road activities - so its not just a job to them.

Then perhaps you stand out from many other garages as one of the good ones and maybe i've just been unlucky with some of my experiences and thats tainted things. I'm sure you would be able to meet my standards should i ever need my car fixing when i'm working in the west - and i do frequently so dont think i am so far away........! I know you dont need to use a torque wrench for everything, but if someone has a habit of overtightening things then it helps.

[steve b]

...Just a practical point imho ....working on the ground/axle stands is a whole lot different to servicing/doing repairs on a four post lift, everything feels tighter when you are laying on your back with no room.......

..and back to the original post , and as others have said , its well known in the trade that TD5 oil spinner cover bolts will strip with no warning or overtightening, lets have some give and take here shall we?

..we are all human and all have our own perspective , and we are supposed to be sharing a common interest here on a technical forum.

And yes as well as Steel Fab I am also a Land Rover independent specialist..

Steveb

[RedLineMike]

As you are in Hertfordshire its unlikely you will ever need my services,this really pleases me as I doubt anyone could service or repair your cars to the standard you feel is necessary.

This forum is becoming populated by people who either want to show off how bloody clever they are or just to have a good moan.

Not very helpful,not much to find interesting.

i can agree with you there

[zardos]

Another example of a garage not following correct procedure.

Very soon after get my 90 back from a garage I had to take a wheel off.

My 650mm digital torque complained that the undoing torque was more than 250lbf ft and would not budge them.

I had to get the same length breaker bar and 6ft scaffolding pole on to undo them

Now the manual says they should be 80lbf ft or hand pressure tight (with supplied wrench).

So there is no way was a normal wheel change kit going to undo them and I bet that even an AA man would have trouble.

This could have been very costly and time consuming if I had a flat and needed to change the wheel on the road.

I also think it is very dangerous to over tighten a bold 3-4 times it normal torque as it will probably stretch the bolt and make it weaker.

[Giles tout terrain]

To be fair i'd have thought a AA man would have trouble trying to undo a loose wheel!

[Tetsu0san]

Just to add my pennies worth...

I agree that for torque sensitive bolts that you should use a torque wrench, and for a crank bolt or head bolts it is pretty important. Wheel nuts are also pretty important to get the tightness right, but using a torque wrench is a little OTT. The biggest issue with wheel nuts are those air guns. You can't always judge the tightness with them and it's really easy to either overtighten them so you can't get the bugger off, or just not do them up tight enough.

Sump bolts can be tightened using experience, not just with torque values. That probably doesn't sound quite right, but you know what I mean Mechanics should be able to feel if it's tight enough (no dirty thoughts there please)

But, as with everything you should vote with your feet. If something is not right, complain (or at the very least mention it) to the garage and if nothing improves then go somewhere else. I agree that some places do cut corners but if they do it too often they will loose trade so that is good. Maybe then they will wake up and get stuff right. I know this is not a good thing to say but sometimes the care taken on a job is going to be less than the care you would take on your own car. This is not always the problem, but as described above it can be. However, time is the biggest issue when doing any work, so where it would take someone like me all day to do a job, it would take a garage 3 hours. But they know the shortcuts to do the job and this should not affect the outcome.

[MartinK]

...Just a practical point imho ....working on the ground/axle stands is a whole lot different to servicing/doing repairs on a four post lift, everything feels tighter when you are laying on your back with no room.......

..and back to the original post , and as others have said , its well known in the trade that TD5 oil spinner cover bolts will strip with no warning or overtightening, lets have some give and take here shall we?

Steveb

Good points Steve - I wasn't aware that stripping the threads on the oil spinner was a common issue, easy done at a 10nm torque setting - I guess I was just disappointed to find it - kind of felt like my car had been "vandalised". Maybe the garage should have told me (1) it had happened, and (2) that there was a workaround of a longer bolt, and a nut on the bottom. Certainly easier it's the side away from the block, as it's more accessible to hold the small nut under.

I'll be changing the gearbox, transfer and diff oils next. along with fuel and air filters - lets hope that all goes more smoothly!

Seem to have started a few interesting threads here, it's obviously a hot topic!

Cheers

[steve b]

Its always painful parting with your hard earned for a service from another , whether it be mechanicing or whatever.I do understand how you felt, it is frustrating when things seem to have been overlooked/bodged.

The best fix for your spinner cover threads would be fitting thread inserts such as Helicoil which would take away any worries permanently .

Check your gearbox filler plug before you drain the gearbox as it may have a torx tool head so make sure you can undo it to refill before you empty it.

cheers

Steveb

[gunner29]

dont like this site,i only asked a simple question regarding tyres and pressures,methinks no-one can answer it

[JimAttrill]

I use a torque wrench for just about every bolt, but I am a trained RAF engine fitter and not a car mechanic. I do use a torque wrench to do my wheel nuts up, but that is partly because I am not in a hurry and I have a torque wrench in the first place. But even without a torque wrench I have a fair idea of how to do up most bolts depending on their size without breaking them. I think I can emulate 25 Nm very well by now for the 10mm bolts on my Tdi.