GBMUD Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Ian, thanks for the warning, I had no idea such a small amount of movement could upset it all! I am just taking a break from actually doing the job so that was a timely reply! Any suggestions as to how one might clamp the TC in place prior to removal of the engine? The only access I have so far is through the starter hole - I have removed the four bolts connecting the starter to the flex plate. Only engine mounts, downpipe and bell-housing bolts remaining - and of course the unforseen wire, pipe, etc! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Can give you a hand at the weekend??? Thanks for the offer BIsh, I like to think that it will all be back together by then. You could come tomorrow subject to the weather... Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Chris, I used a piece of angle cut to drop inside the bell housing and bolt to a couple of bell housing bolt holes to clamp the torque converter in place when I last had it apart. I got an assistant to hold the torque converter into the gearbox whilst easing the box away from the engine. Also the drivers side engine mount has a large washer as a spacer to stop the timing cover from touching the steering box. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Well, it is out, and it is not pretty. As well as the flex plate itself I will need to replace the spacer-crank drive plate (RTC4214) and the backing plate (RTC4213) as they have become damaged on their edges where the plate broke and then spun and part friction welded itself back together and to those spacers. New parts ordered and should be here tomorrow, more than doubled the cost of just a flex plate. Looking at the flex plate housing on the back of the engine, there are no dowels fitted and no evident holes where they should be. There are two studs (the rest of the fixings being bolts) though so I assume that these must take the place of dowels. The torque converter made a bid for freedom despite my making absolutely sure that the bell housing was pointing upwards. Poxy thing. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Chris, I have refitted a torque converter successfully a couple of times with a gearbox in situ, just take your time and make sure the distance from bell housing face to mounting lugs on the converter are as specified -this is more than likely listed in the workshop manual, it certainly is for the V8 where most of them are at 51mm. Assuming it has come out, I refitted by lifting, rotating and gently pushing until it slotted home, it was 3 separate stages before it was home enough. You are basically trying to line up three sets of splines, so do it with that in mind and I am sure it will go back together OK again. If in doubt, pull it off and try again, I did it a couple of times to make sure I was happy, and each time got it to the specified amount, bolted it all up and has been fine ever since... Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ian Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you have not positively identified two dowels stop they could be (hollow) dowels but they must be there or you cannot get true alignment. On the 300 Tdi there are two solid dowels locating the seal housing (one at 9.00 one at 3.00) the engine back plate is then positioned (if my memory is correct ) with two 16mm dia hollow dowels, they MUST be fitted or you will have another broken flex / starter plate, can Pete confirm they were fitted originally??? they could have been omitted a long time ago hence previous problems?? . Not trying to be negative just trying to help. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If you have not positively identified two dowels stop they could be (hollow) dowels but they must be there or you cannot get true alignment. On the 300 Tdi there are two solid dowels locating the seal housing (one at 9.00 one at 3.00) the engine back plate is then positioned (if my memory is correct ) with two 16mm dia hollow dowels, they MUST be fitted or you will have another broken flex / starter plate, can Pete confirm they were fitted originally??? they could have been omitted a long time ago hence previous problems?? . Not trying to be negative just trying to help. Ian In the time that I owned the engine/gearbox the engine back-plate has never been off the engine so is as far as I know as it left the factory there were 2 solid dowels locating the bellhousing to the engine backplate (as mentioned above by Chris). The original (to me and as far as I could tell original to the vehicle) flexplate survived approx 100,000 miles, The gearbox and torque converter were then replaced with re-con items, when the gearbox died. When reassembled I drove the vehicle approx 1000 miles before the original flexplate broke (in much the same way as the one Chris has posted pictures of). This was then replaced with a new flexplate, (at this point I again checked the depth of the torque converter and made sure that the 2 studs/dowels were fitted correctly), which lasted I would guess 10,000 miles and then broke in the same way. This last plate (a genuine LR one) was fitted and has lasted less than a year although I don't really know how many miles. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It would however explain the problems which only started after the new box and torque converter were fitted when the engine and box were still in the Discovery. If the box has previously been replaced, it's possible the dowels were stuck in the bell housing of the old box that went back on exchange. That's not uncommon. As Ian said there should be some sort of dowels,the two studs mentioned are not sufficient. There should be either two plain solid dowels or hollow types that sit in a counter bore around a stud/bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Ok slightly off topic ( Sorry Chris) but is this the same for the 200Tdi back plate ? I know the set up is different with regards the oil seal etc, but does that have the same dowel set up ? Regards Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There will be 2 dowels at each bolted joint to ensure accurate alignment any mis-alignment will cause the weakest link to go - and I'm not talking about Boothy Cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've not had many apart but the 3.9/4.2RRC looks like the above (page 1). The starter plate has teeth on it, the flex plate or drive plate sits behind it. The 4.6 gearbox/flywheel/Torque converter I'm converitng my LSE with is very different becasue the TC sits way closer to the engine. It still has 2 plates though! As for the 300TDi, all I know for sure is it has the smallest of the 3 TCs available which is as thick as the medium one fitted to 3.9/4.0V8s and later 4.6s (gems?) and I think it still has 2 plates. We've got one but it's never broken down. Just seen the pictures of yours, looks a mess Can you tell what let go first? Here's a tip my mate showed me, if I ever split an auto box I use the drain hole at the bottom and once I have all the flex plate bolts out I draw a circle on the TC around the drain/access hole so I can tell if it's moved. If it drops out and you don't spin it it should re-engage with the oil pump (though most of the ones Phil did at the farm never went back together again). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If the box has previously been replaced, it's possible the dowels were stuck in the bell housing of the old box that went back on exchange. Looking at the flex plate housing on the back of the engine, there are no dowels fitted and no evident holes where they should be. There are two studs (the rest of the fixings being bolts) though so I assume that these must take the place of dowels. As Chris has found there is no provision for a conventional dowel the are just the 2 studs. The box I removed was the same as the box I fitted in this respect. There was no evidence (in the service history for the Discovery) of the gearbox having been replaced prior to me changing it. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Should there be hollow "roll pins" around 2 of the studs then? I think that's what a V8 would have, if memory serves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I think some pictures are required..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Err, this may be the answer. I went out to take some pictures and access is very difficult as I have only moved the engine forward off the gearbox and not removed it entire. Here is a picture showing the two studs in the engine adapter/flex plate housing. I then took a close up of one of the studs. See next post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 So excited I posted twice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Looking at the stud, and where it screws into the housing, I think that there should indeed be a hollow rolled stud in the recess around the stud. The size of the hole in the bell housing would support this theory. So, assuming that I am right, and I am sure that the world and his wife will support this theory, it looks as if the fitting of these dowels was overlooked; possibly when the recon gearbox was fitted and the trouble all started. Perhaps the original ones went away with the old gearbox and none were supplied with the new box? Thanks to RangeRoverBlues for the suggestion of hollow dowels round the studs and to EJParrot for the picture request which showed this possibility up! Thanks for all the thoughts and suggestions so far, keep em coming... Perhaps if Mr Ian should look in later he might be able to confirm? Cheers Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Well that proves my memory is shot to bit's . Glad you have found a probable cause for the failures. Have fun putting it back together and next time you see James give him a slap for giving you that cold. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yeap I'd agree that there should be 2 hollow pins round them bolts like you say. Looking at the Torque converter I have to put it, it has a small ridge around the boss that sits in the end of the crank, this would allow it to self-align (or run at a slight angle). The inputs to the gearbox would also allow a small amount of mis-alignment I guess. mr Ian would be best placed to advise if there could be any concerns for the gearbox itself. At least now you know and I might be mistaken but the roll pins are the same on any LR gearbox, I might even have 2 myself if you get stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yep, that definitely looks like the hole for those dowels. The same sort of dowel is used on TDi cylinder heads etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yes you are absolutely correct. As i suggested earlier these should be hollow dowells (there should be two of them in total). These had also been omitted on mine, and casue the flex plate to break on mine aswell. The fact that these are missing will have been the cause of the flex plate breaking. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 There will be 2 dowels at each bolted joint to ensure accurate alignment any mis-alignment will cause the weakest link to go - and I'm not talking about Boothy Cheers Steveb f me that made me laugh ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ian Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hi Thats good news, yes these are the dowels, unfortuately your not the first and prob not the last. This dowel arrangement is common on manual and auto boxes. Good luck with re-assembly Regards Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I suspect the hollow dowels you need are item 2 quanity 2 on this parts link http://www.numcat.ru...ver/p/32/45748/ on brit-cars website but no picture http://www.brit-car....php?xProd=86153 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Does anyone know if the 200 Tdi has the same dowels on the back plate ? I have put a auto on my manual 200Tdi block, and this has put the wind up me to say the least, i've not run it yet so trying to decide if I need to take it apart. There no seat box or anything in now, so its relativity easy. on the one hand I don't want to take it apart on the other I want to be on the safe side, so before I start on the spanners do I need to ?? Cheers Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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