Hybrid_From_Hell Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Hi All, I have been asked by a Few Peeps for a Technical Diff Thread, so here it is, Words 'n Video will be popped into the LR4x4 Tech forum and will prob be used by members to help answer other members ongoing queries around diff Questions, ! 1st the words : Odd Ball Diffs. EARLY Series 1 80" - 4.88:1 Casing is unique as it is longer than a Long Nose diff, rare and expensive and odd ratio V8 90s came with 4 Pin Centres, rare, fetch a premium, but beware these are at best near 30 Years old, and they do wear - hugely sometimes ! LSD units - even rarer I know of the current location of a 4 Pin LSD 4.7:1 Long Nose 10 spline diff - when next there I'll take a piccie ! The "Long Nose" Diff - Our Bread n Butter Land Rover Diffs come in a 'range a flavours', the main ones are as follows : This unit is fitted in various guises and ratios to all Series 1 2 3, 90s, Defenders, Range Rovers Discos etc etc The Main Ratios are 4.7:1 for Series, and 3.54 for just about everything else....These Diffs ARE NOT all the same. The main differences are that there is an "Imperial Casing" and a "Metric Casing", Imperial tends (not always) to be 4.7s, and the Metric tends, but again not always to be 3.54. Mixing the guts of one type into another type can be done but its not striaght forward and frankly should be avioded, and can be spendy Some Imperial Casings and some early Metric Casings have filler plugs on the Diff Units, as the axles are sealed, later Metric have no filler plug on the Diff Casings, as they are on the Axles, .....be carefull ! Some EARLY Series Imperial Casings have a seperate "Nose" which has to be shimmed, these can be spotted by a ring of bolts around the top of the casing where the Pinion seal exits. EARLY Diifs also have locking tabs on the Crown Wheel Bolts and also some have locking wire around the 4 x Carrier Bolts. Early Imperial Diffs Carrier Bolts are a different length and thread to Metric Carrier bolts, however the Crown Wheel Bolts are all the same ALL Iimperial and Metric casings the Crown wheel bolts are UNF, as are Heavy duty replacement units from the likes of KAM and Ashcroft a improved and stronger Crown Wheel Bolt is FTC5150, these are 12.9 ton, Flanged head bolt, once ONLY use, and around £1.30 each you need 10x of them they will fit ALL Crwonwheels, however, Heavy duty Crownwheels like KAM and Ashcroft need a Longer bolt to enagage the wide Crownwheel threads completely, the STANDARD bolts FTC3586 (early number superceed to this) are 1.25" long, the FTC is 1" long, fine for the 3.54 or 4.7 standard crownwheels - is debatable on the wider ones as the thread is .25 too short, there was a longer Flange bolt but LR No longer make it...... On Crown Wheels and Pinions every pair IS A MATCHED SET, you'll see numbers etched into the end of the Pinion and the same number on the Crownwheel back face DO NOT MIC CROWN WHEELS & PINIONS Up from differing units, they are always a Pair, and are ground & matched to each other Rebulding a Imperial Casing will require different Carrier Bearing to Metric- and they are more Spendy, all Metric casing use the same carrier bearings RTC3095, if you are planning to upgrade to a Locker etc, the casings generally regarded as the "Strongest" are the Imperial OR Metric ones with "Ribs" over the carrier caps, vs the very late TD5 type casing which has a Flat Cap. If your also pegging the strength is massively increased on both, so is less of an issue Carrier Bolts Imperial or Metric are prone to stretching and bending, most are 8.8 or less, 12.9T is a huge improvment, with Loctite ! The 4.7s are 10 spline centre, ie take 10 spline shafts, the 3.54s can be either 10 spline or 24 spline. All Long Nose casings fit all axle tubes and are interchangeable, fitting 3.54 units to a series axle sometimes requires a dowel or 2 to be removed from the series casing. All 4 bolt flanges fit, even when like say the TD5 "Round type" look different. 3 Bolt flnages and donuts are a superb LR bodification and partly involved the work of the devil, and yes you can swap over a 3 bolt to 4 bolt, BUT the 3 bolt has a spacer/ collar as part of its unit, the 4 bolt flange has a seperate collar so must be fitted. Swapping over flanges does not affect preload or pinion height, and can be done on the vehicle if carefull. Use a new Nyloc if is is that type, can be a castleated nut with a split pin, or even a bolt into the end of the pinion, its a LR things are designed to all look the same and then catch you out 10 spline diffs are no stronger and 24 spline diffs, both are weak as they are a 2 pin design. 24 spline shafts ARE stonger than 10 spline shafts, more later in video. Ratio wise a Rover 3.0 Coupe has 3.9:1 CW&Ps if you can find them - and you'll need 2 x of them Early Rover cars have 4.3:1 same applies ! Just to complete the abortion of bolt types, the 2 x bolts that hold the steering damper in place on a diff casing are BSF ! Thats a quick whizz around Long Nose units, now Short Nose Diffs This differential causes all sort of questions and queries, so lets start with This unit will NOT fit into a Long Nose casing. The PCD of the bolts is completely different. No, don't try cutting off the mounting flange on your long nose diff, and fitting a short nose ring, a tad out of 100% alignment (which you will be) will cause major drive train issues. NO the centres are not interchangebale, more later. These differentials are fitted to P38 Range Rovers, all models, and LATE TD5 110 Rear Axles, and come in 2 flavours ALL are just one ratio - 3.54:1. and the 2 x flavours are the cheap and somewhat nasty 2 pin, and the heavier Duty 4 Pin. MANY people have looked at using the Short Nose 4 pin centre into a Long Nose casing, it is NOT a striaghtforward step, and to do it properly (yes it can be done) requires a large amount of maching time, and some serious skill to get it right, however, done right it is a VERY Strong cheap unit The Short Nose 2 pin is fitted to all P38 Front and Rear, but the 4.6 V8 has a 4 pin Rear Diff as does the 110 Rear, the 110 front diff is a good old standard 2 pin Long Nose type unit So, thats a quick whiz around Short Nose stuff Salisbury Ah yes the Salisbury. Frankly I don't like them. Consider that you have to "Stretch the casing open" just enough to get the centre out, and too much = 1 x scrap casing - I mean WTF !. Also Salisburys are hideously expensive to rebuild (head bearing is around 8x the costs of a Long Nose unit) and there are again different ratios and Flavours, there are drum braked Salisburys, disc braked salisburys and 4.7 and 3.54 ratios, On 110s, a quick upgrade is to by a Short Nose late TD5 110 axle, 4 pin flvour, and prop and swap the lot over. Salisbury axles are stong, the diffs can take a lot of abuse, but the axle tube themselves are prone to shearing off where they exit the diff unit. Pretty much nothing on a Salisbury fits either a short nose or Long Nose assembly ! Ok, and now for a Video: Please see the Linky here for a Video I made which is hosted on You Tube.: I did this as I was getting asked the same Questions Day in and Day out, and' Pictures tell a 1000 word's, so a video does lots and lots . I will shortly be doing a 2nd Video which will show the other most common "Fails" within a diff, from wear (and how to spot it) damage (and how to spot it) and what you can do to fix yourself as a easy fix, and what is outside the simple fix and why as this is another common series of Questions. 2nd Video will be along as and when....in the meantime, this 1st Thread will be popped into the Tech Forum for LR4x4 so all members can use it for helping answers on future standard diff Questions by pointing to it ! Just as a final, I was extremely nervous of just popping this up as a Thread out of the blue, as it could have easily be deemed to be me spamming the forum, so I put it to the A&M Team and asked them - I said if any single Mod or Admin objected I would not post it, all have said no do it as it is highly technical video and Thread , and will be of use to many many memebrs for a long tme to come. ( just in case your wondering ) Happy Learin' Nige 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Brill Nige, But I will still come to you. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Great read Nige, Keep up the good work. Certainly don't see it as you spamming, there is far too much tech for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPendrey Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Is that your hand in the video? I ask because I expected your hands to be missing fingers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 No mention of ENV diffs? ...or do you not sell them? :-p Chris (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Good write up Got a tech question; Is it just the towers or does the diff carrier play a part in the teeth jumping? I was told Kam and ARB lockers were less prone to crown wheel damage because thay were more rigid than standard 2 pin carrier? Actually, I was told I wouldn't need 'pegging' on a carbed 3.5 because the Kam locker would add enough strength for my needs. It seemed fair at the time. And all I've ever killed on standard is the cross pin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_B Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Great write up, Nige. I'm looking at upgrading the diffs on my RRC, so I can use the info I can get, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Is that your hand in the video? I ask because I expected your hands to be missing fingers. Great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Not picking holes Niggel, but you forgot to mention some short nose diffs have reverse cut crown wheels and pinions, so if you get a replacement second hand p38 diff for say your late 110" be V careful as if you put a front cut gear set in your rear you'll be sorry! (in more ways than one ooeer) Regards ENV, no mention by nige, probably should be included as an overview of the diff types, but we can build ANY differential unit if you can source the parts Diff slave, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Hunter Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Really good info. Well done and thanks for sharing it. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomark10 Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Did you ever do the second vid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeslouw Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Nige, just a quicky: can I buy an early coiler front axle with 10-spline shafts and drop in the Series 2 center portion? Does the Series 10-spline carrier match the Defender/RRC/early Disco 10-spline shafts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hancock Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 A series 10 spline diff will fit a RRC/D1 10 spline axle and shafts. Long nose diffs, the 4 bolt flanges are not all the same, on a series they are on 4 splines and on the late 200tdi D1 diff that I pulled the flange off to change the pinion seal it was a fine spline, I did not count the splines but it was something like 20 spline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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