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Project 90 - Change of Direction?


Aragorn
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As some of you may know, i've had a very long running rebuild on my 90, which for the last few years has barely been touched due to the usual stuff that gets in the way of fun (ie life)

As of last week it looked like this (yep, piled under reams of junk and somewhat unloved) :

IMG_20130213_191538.jpg

I've decided to pull my finger out and even done some more work on the rear axle over the past few weeks (not all of it progress mind you, as i've taken the A-Frame off to fit another new (non-**** this time) Balljoint!), but i've had a long and serious think about where i want to go with it.

The original plan was to mount an Audi V8 in the front, its even sitting there, between the chassis rails in the engine bay (though not attached to anything), and this is where my concerns lie.

Sure, a huge V8 in the front of a 90 would be fantastic fun, but it would be almost useless as a even semi-daily driven car due to the fuel consumption. Furthermore, it has a very shallow oil pan, and an unsealed timing case, meaning any serious offroading would have me clenching my arse in case of oil starvation, or carp getting into and damaging the timing belt. I fear the end result would be a truck that i've invested thousands in, costs too much to use, has a constant fear of breaking it, and thus simply never gets used. The motor is also is an awkward shape, and is going to require lots of tricky engineering to solve some of the issues, like the oil pump and sump/girdle wanting to fight with the front diff!

Now i'm thinking i need to refocus this build on what i'd actually want to use it for. I do lots of mileage for work, and i have another car for that, so daily use duties arent a concern. I dont indend on it being a extreme challenge type truck, more a plaything, but i dont want rediculous fuel consumption to stop me using it, so i'm thinking it really needs to be a diesel.

Now, given i have a TD5 chassis, bulkhead and fuel tank already as a basis for my new build, and applying the KISS principle, i'm thinking that a TD5 motor is probably the sensible approach to take here. OK i'll need to buy the engine and they're not cheap, but it removes a whole pile of custom fabrication that i simply dont have the time to invest in it, and TBH i recon theres at least a grand that needs sunk into the V8 before its actually going to fit, be attached to everything and running, which essentially means TD5 will work out a faster and cheaper approach. I can recoup some of the money from selling the V8 and TDi gearbox as well.

Thoughts?

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You have adopted the logical stance, but as a toy, logic doesn't need to prevail. A v8 probably won't give any better performance than the TD5 unless highly tuned and tweaked, but somehow is a more joyous engine, while the TD5, as well as it pulls, is always going to feel tractor-like. There's no right or wrong answer, and a TD5 will be better financially if the vehicle does end up getting used often, but if you do just use it for small journeys for fun, a V8 will put a bigger smile on your face, and that is the while point of toys. If it's going to be for fun, fit what you feel most excited by, not what your head tells you to fit!

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I must admit when I first read of your plans for the V8 and looked at how it didn't really fit, I was a little bemused. Kudos for trying tho, definitely, but as you say life gets in the way and these projects end up being just an expensive pile of bits in the garage. I'm now unfortunately (through no fault of my own) short of an off road-able land rover and currently considering options. Due to the million other things that seem to eat up my time, and actually wanting to get out there in the mud, the more ready-made options are looking the most appealing.

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Sorry, somehow I got mixed up and thought you had the Audi engine and a Rover V8 too - don't know why. As far as the Audi engine goes, I'd get rid: too difficult and too expensive - the insurance alone would be a nightmare. But a good 4.2 Rover V8....

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Snagger: I think what i've realised is the fun is being able to use it as it should be, ie on lanes, offroading and suchlike. I have a stripped out track car if i want to have a high speed blast, and my daily driver has a turbocharged petrol and >200hp so again i'm not going to jump into the defender for a burn up!

V8 defenders are awesome, but the rover motor just does nothing for me, hence wanting to fit something modern and shiney.

Bowie: I considered it, but the cost of a good LPG kit is in the thousands and it takes up a huge amount of room inside. As for moving it back, the exhaust manifolds wouldnt clear the bulkhead if i did that (not a huge issue, but would add yet another thing to fix). Its just a shame the sump is the shape it is, its sort of T shaped, with the wide bit of the T sitting right in line with the front axle, and the oil pumps mounted in the sump right at the front. It would have to move either a long way back, or a long way forward before it would clear. I had intended to cut the sump "wing" off the offside of the motor, giving me the clearance to the axle, but the oil pump drive pulley gets in the way which means i didnt get as much room as i'd hoped. It probably would fit, but the clearance would be tight at full compression of the suspension. Its lots of other niggles as well, the oil filter housing wont fit as it collides with the steering box, so i'd need a remote filter setup, the PAS and alternator bracket hits the chassis so the PAS and alternator mountings will need made from scratch. Not to mention it needs a flywheel, and the gearbox adaptor itself was likely to end up costing me several hundred quid. Nothing insurmountable, but all time consuming niggly bits that are just going to soak up money.

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I think you've already answered you own question....as fun as it might be, returning to an LR engine is probably the best. I'm not familiar with the TD5 mounts, but here's too questions : is there a difference between disco and defender engines and is one cheaper? Is there a reason not to use a cheaper but just as reliable 300 or even 200?

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Not sure on the Disco/Defender TD5 engine situation tbh, thats something that needs researched. I'll need to shift the Audi motor and TDi R380 first to free up some funds anyway.

The TD5 motor just seems like a better choice, its more powerful, more modern, likely to be younger/less miles etc. Plus it means i can sort out the wiring issues and stick to using a complete TD5 wiring harness, rather than trying hack together the TD5 bulkhead harness with tatty ancient wiring etc.

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See your point, second hand LPG kit is often very cheap, if you were to that direction with a Rover V8, especially if a draw through system, or using in preference a BLOS LPG carb, which are great.

Have you considered a larger jap diesel? often far more reliable than the TD5, if you pick your option correctly it's likely to have the right sump arrangement to suit a beam axled vehicle. I think it's Dirty Diesel that does a fair bit with Isuzu lumps, and having driven a couple of these, I am impressed with them.

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Yep it makes sense. Maybe i'm just older and wiser (or more boring?!) now, but i'm all for simplicity and getting a usable truck sooner rather than later.

Also, after a V8, the noise of an inline-5 is a close second, and some youtube videos show the TD5 sounding pretty sweet with the right exhaust ;)

TD5 Engine fund has been started! Anyone want to buy an Audi V8? :lol:

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Cummings 6bt and accompanying ZF 5speed? Sounds good, can hit 300bhp/1500lb/ft with little more than a change of injector tips and a few turns on the fuel pump screw, and a Daf 45 can be had for less than a grand in bad nick with a good engine and box, and the truck can be weighed in for a fair few bob. I know, it's big an heavy, and not a straight fit, and blah blah blah, but the noise it makes alone is enough to make me feel indecent!

Coat.

Hat.

Gloves.

Scarf.

Door.

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My Td5 is tuned and running stage 2 map, intercooler, custom exhaust ....... All the usual mods. It sounds ok and goes well for what it is, however if it ever goes bang, I have been thinking about a BMW M57 engine as used in the td6 range rover . It's not that hard to fit but will require a custom loom and ECU (both are available). My mate has one in his 110 and it sounds very nice and pulls very well.

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Is that the lump in the early L322s? Having done a bit of work on the TD6 rangies, I have to say that I'm not bowled over by their construction or performance, and neither is my much more knowledgeable mechanic mate. They're none too efficient, and a bit carp for a big vehicle. The performance of the L322 that we replaced the turbo on a few days back was pretty lack-lustre with the new one on, and the MPG was fairly pants for a modern diesel.

The 3.5 Beemer in the more modern cars though... Wow. Yes please. 340bhp and 550lb/ft with just a chip!

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M57 is interesting certainly. Maybe something to consider for the future. The lack of information though isnt great, we can surmise it fits using P38 bits due to the similar M51 engine, and the M52 petrol defenders, but its likely still to be very complicated/expensive in terms of all the small details like plumbing and wiring. One of those conversions that the "specialists" like to sit on all the info about.

Again though, its back into the realms of custom bits, I can buy a TD5 and it bolts right in, or i can buy a BMW motor and have to mess around making it fit and work, with however many unknown snags waiting to catch me out, and cost me money and time!

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Again though, its back into the realms of custom bits, I can buy a TD5 and it bolts right in,

Bear in mind the cost of some of those bits you are 'just about to bolt in', what you have can be made to work, but I guess with a TD5 engine you will want all TD5 stuff?

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Yeh, but i already have quite a few TD5 bits anyway, chassis is td5 spec, the only thing missing is the engine mounting brackets as i specified it without them when i ordered it, i have already sourced a TD5 fuel tank as i planned to use that with the V8 anyway, i bought a new TD5 bulkhead when they were going cheap a few years ago, and picked up a good condition TD5 seat box a while back to replace the completely rotten one that came off!

I also already planned to upgrade to TD5 instrument pack and the 2002-spec centre console.

What it means is that instead of having to splice all the shinies in, and mess with the bulkhead to fit the earlier wiring loom, i can simply source a TD5 bulkhead and chassis harness and plug everything right in. More simplicity, less time and also a likely reliability improvement switching out an ancient wiring harness for a much newer one! On that note i'm annoyed with myself as i missed a cheap TD5 bulkhead harness that was on ebay yesterday :(

TD5 engines ofcourse arent cheap, but i'm hoping that if i can get back more or less what i paid for the V8, i'll have a complete ready to bolt in engine assembly for more or less the same money than it would have cost just to sort the flywheel/clutch on the V8 and get it mated upto the R380.

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I have to say this makes me sad deep inside. I was enjoying reading this as im doing something similar myself. Could you not sell all the TD5 bits and other stuff u have and carry on? I have already rebuilt my defender and my dads, hence why I am this time doing something different, just bolting something together strikes me as a bit boring after having to design something to fit. Who cares if its costly or it takes longer if u have to spread the cost out. It will be great fun and u only live once!

Stick with the audi V8! :i-m_so_happy:

Jad

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The TD5 parts would be staying regardless, they were all selected for good reason. For instance i bought the TD5 tank so it wouldnt rust. I bought the TD5 bulkhead because they were going dirt cheap a few years ago brand new and the one i had was ruined.

I would simply rather get the truck built up and running and actually use it. I bought the landrover and started the rebuild in 2007! So its been laying around as an expensive pile of bits for over 5 years at this point.

In reality, instead of buying a very old, dirt cheap truck needing a LOT of work all in one go, i should have bought a slightly more expensive, working truck, that i could have upgraded and repaired as i went along, getting use out of it while improving it and essentially rebuilding it bit by bit. Hindsight is 20:20 etc...

Not counting the engine, i still need to find a rear tub/sides/roof/rear door, purchase and install brake calipers, pipes and hoses all round, purchase and install front springs/shocks/steering box, then paint the whole thing! Also need to sort out the interior, as the seats i had have been destroyed by rats, headlining was truckcab spec and sold with the truckcab roof etc etc.

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A v8 probably won't give any better performance than the TD5

:huh:

Back in reality with Aragorn; you need to decide what you want the 90 to be. I had this whole thing when building the 109, everything was "wrong" (AKA against the fashions of the time) - everyone was building truck-cabbed TDi-auto challenge 90's and I was building a full-bodied V8-manual leaf-sprung hearse...

So I had to stop and have a damn good think about why I was doing it. I concluded:

- V8 because of the grin factor, and I wasn't doing enough miles to make a real difference in fuel saving (TD5's are not *that* economical)

- Manual because I like 'em and they survive abuse better

- LWB because I want to be able to do distance & camping / expedition

- Leaf springs because otherwise you may as well just go off and buy a Defender

In your case, you need to decide if you are doing it because you want something different and hilarious (Audi-V8 in a 90) or if you want a more sensible but dull standard-issue 90 you can drive around in sooner.

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I guess thats whats changed? initially i was doing it because it was different and hilarious. Various people have pointed out fobiles of the idea over the years, and i've blinkered them because i wanted my hilarious defender, visions of smoking sports cars off the lights gave me a face splitting grin and the inner child screaming "i need that!". Having sat down and had a good think, i've realised that i'm going about it all wrong.

If i wanted some hilarious fun-bus i should have patched up the chassis, left the knackered bodywork as it was and nailed a huge engine in the front. Going to full nut and bolt rebuild efforts for something which is in effect a hair-brained crazy idea was probably not the wisest of moves. Afterall, smoking people off the lights would be fun, for a while, then it'd get boring (or get me arrested!) and i'd be left with a truck that was somewhat useless.

At this point i want a usable 90 that will last me many years. I've got all the bits in place to make it last, and using a standard landrover engine will ensure its finished sooner rather than later. I can always look into an engine swap some time down the line if the TD5 blows up or i have a midlife crisis :P

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