Winch Challenge Vehicle Classes

[will_warne]

Why not just enter whatever you have and have a good day out? Compete against yourself and the terrain?

My first event was the JBS Summer Challenge in a 90 with 255/85 BFG MTs, a front XD 9000, 2" lift and NO lockers. Had a great time. Enjoyed ourselves. Did the Inch by Winch with the same spec.

(BUt then I got Jac MAc hypoids, chipped, new exhaust cage, more suspension, buckets, harness, on board computer, underdrive and loads more and now I have a tube buggy. )

Interestingly, they had similar debates over on PBB a couple of years ago.

FB

Totally agree, Tim. I never want to compete against vehicles that are all the same. The fun thing is seeing how others approch the same problem from a differant angle.

[honitonhobbit]

Totally agree, Tim. I never want to compete against vehicles that are all the same. The fun thing is seeing how others approch the same problem from a differant angle.

I find this sad Will, it also shows your youth and lack of life experience. When it comes down to it driver skill is the most important ingredient in any form of motorsport. One make or limited mod competiton always sorts out the men form the boys, the skilled from the poohey - whereas low budget with skill and huge budget with no skill can create a divide that all the skill in the world cannot bridge. Level the playing field and then the real fun starts

[pugwash]

Dave i think you are looking at winch challenges a little simplistically and you aren't thinking through that statement.

Yes on track events (or track like events such as trials) then one make or limited mod competition can be more interesting. however in the BMW formula chapionship (which euian hankey runs in) there is a huge difference between the teams with money and the teams without- and that's with cars which are effectively sealed at the start of eash season- and all engine/transmission rebuilds are done by the BMW factory "blind" so that no possible outside influence can exist. Those with money just spend more on testing and getting the best from the package they have- the cars at the front are still quicker than the cars at the back.

The main difference between challenge events and track events is that the "enviroment" changes- in track events the racing track is constant, the cars are "constant", and only the drivers change.

In Challlenge events there are no constants- the enviroment is constantly changing- at any one site there can be enviroments that suit portalled monsters, and envireoments that suit lightweight zooks. Drivers are certainly not constant and cars aren't constant either- even if you allowed no mods then a standard rangie is going to succesful in very different enviroments to SJs. A 90 and a disco can be completely different in the same enviroment.

basically a small light cheap car can choose certain punches that a huge, wide, heavy car just won't be able to do quickly and vice-versa.

There is no point trying to level the playing field- as the playing field itself isn't level- no car can be all things to all enviroments no matter how much money you spend.

Agreed that driver skill is still THE most important thing in competition- and actually i beleive driver skill in challenges is more important that in track racing (you can after all teach someone the best line and the braking areas on a track- you can't teach someone how to read the ground in every challenge enviroment in the world!).

So basically if nothing else is going to be constant and mods don't always make the difference they might appear to- then there is very little reason to prevent people from doing what they want.

[Mark90]

Agreed that driver skill is still THE most important thing in competition- and actually i beleive driver skill in challenges is more important that in track racing

Nah, what about a numpty driver who can do as he's told with a good winch bitch who can read the ground and direct the driver over the terrain with the two of them working in perfect harmony like a well oiled machine. Just look at Nick and Les......ok maybe that wasn't the best example

I'd prefer to compete on a level playing field (don't like hills ) rather than against motors that my cheque book can not compete against, at least that way when I come no where I'll know it's cos my driving is carp and not down to having a lesser spec'd motor and we'll really sort out the men from the boys.

[honitonhobbit]

Jim

I think you are over complicating winch challenges.

Simplify it down.

If you look at the vehicles around at the moment how many are actually that different, with the majority the biggest difference is in the build quality.

Most vehicles use a standard LR suspension set up with longer springs/shocks or a simple and archaic design. Most are the same or similar wheel base. Limited choice of engines, tyres don't vary much, traction aids are the same. Winches probably count as the biggest variant. Practise and honing of skill coupled to reliability/build quality equals results. The two things that muck up the figures are the driving geniuses in the cheap basic motor and the radical builders with skill.

The biggest control factor at the moment is additional driving aids.

Take yourself. Very limited driving experience but intelligent, quick thinking and able to develop. You want to compete and compete at a highish level right from the word go. You have a reasonable budget. So you opt to spend your way past the basic skills stage. Sensible move.

Oneof the blokes I admire is Mr Cordell. Started basic, worked his way up. Taught himself the skills to mainatin and drive the vehicle. Thought long and hard about what was right for the vehciel development, spent the money where he felt it was right. But is concious of his limitations, primarily the vehicle is need for othere things and must run.

You are buying yourself into a level that allows you to compete head to head. yet if you had identical vehicles Tony would wup you ass for the first few seasons, then as you built up skill you would maybe do a bit of wupin'.

You use Euian as an example and a good one. He has always competed on a level playing field and as such his inate skill shines through.

This is why I feel that a decent handicap/class system for challenges, along with proper scrutineering is the way to go. It levels the playing field. I can pootle along with my basic as b*gg*ry vehicle and have a chance at wupin' you ass in your all singing all dancing Carlos Fandango motor. This will give you the chance to hone your skills so that they are equal to the motor you drive. A bit like Mr Challis really.

As to Challenge events being constantly variable thus removing the need for a level playing field, I say "pants" to that. Experience and /or ability allow for those times when the ground is for or against you. It's like wet tarmac or dry tarmac, south side of the hill Vs North side, loam Vs clay.

So yahboosucks to you

[Turbocharger]

But doing this John, if you "take short routes out / going under tape / cheat" etc, the points you get whilst doing this, robs the other competitors who also get that punch of those points,,,

So not only cheating yourself, but also your fellow entrants

Now, I wonder how I know that

The short route out was to get the punch (and challenge myself) but not put my everyday car past trees that could open up the bodywork like a can opener and see me walking 20 miles to work each day for a week. Round where I live in Bristol, if it's not airtight when I park it up at night I won't still have it in the morning. (Anyone got a cheap pushbike?)

I take your point about robbing your score, but as I see it we're all there to have fun. If you know you got a punch and you did it well, all power to you. The scoresheets are available afterwards so you can work out where you did better or worse than other people. If you're just competing for the silverware at prizegiving, I apologise for stealing your cup and I'll buy you one saying 'I beat Turbocharger' if you like.

No, hang on, there's 1500 people signed up to this forum...

[will_warne]

I find this sad Will, it also shows your youth and lack of life experience. When it comes down to it driver skill is the most important ingredient in any form of motorsport. One make or limited mod competiton always sorts out the men form the boys, the skilled from the poohey - whereas low budget with skill and huge budget with no skill can create a divide that all the skill in the world cannot bridge. Level the playing field and then the real fun starts

Dave, you missunderstand me. There are people who call out for as many classes as possible to make life fair. This just discourages original thinking and damages the sport. I think it'd be very boring to see everyone with the same vehicle which is why rules should be left as open as possible to allow people to be creative. I also don't believe there's a need for any more than one 'modified' class. Like Pod says, I don't see the advantages of portals in the UK. If you look at the results of events this you there are no portal victories and two big wins by effectivly 'bolt-on' 90s which were driven well. I also have a couple of friends who do very well in a pair of vehicles that have cost less than £5k each, have only 33" Simex, rear lockers and XD9000s f&r. IIRC at Muddy Truckers they were 4th or 5th.

I totally agree that at grass roots its not fair to have a modified vehicle up against a standard but, as Mr Challis has prooved, you can do very well in standard class if you know how to drive.

[Mark90]

I don't agree that classes stiffle creativity. Just look at the two other major forms of 4x4 off road motor sports, trailing - tyro, RTV, open, mod, super mod and then the many classes in comp safaris where the biggest divider between classes is engine size and power matters in a speed event (as does putting it down but that's another discussion), now there is a lot of inovative vehicle development in both of those disiplines. How many people in the challenge scene run rear steer? not as many as in modified trialing. Yet in trialing Turbocharger can compete on a level playing field, not against the rear steer fiddle braked mods but in an RTV, ok maybe a tyro

I think the problem with the challenge scene as it stands at the moment is the huge (and ever increasing) gap between the standard class and the modified/unlimited class.

[honitonhobbit]

I think the problem with the challenge scene as it stands at the moment is the huge (and ever increasing) gap between the standard class and the modified/unlimited class.

I think you are right

I also agree with this:

"Yet in trialing Turbocharger can compete on a level playing field, not against the rear steer fiddle braked mods but in an RTV, ok maybe a tyro"

But what more could I expect from a fellow ORRPer, than common sense, humour, a sense of family solidarity in the face of adversity blah blah

[Turbocharger]

I also agree with this:

"Yet in trialing Turbocharger can compete on a level playing field, not against the rear steer fiddle braked mods but in an RTV, ok maybe a tyro"

On a level playing field I'm fine (so long as it's not muddy).

Look, I know I'm a driving god and my Ninety is as capable as every other. That's why it's got Trac Edges on it, no need for your fancy Simex and lockers.

On a serious note, I can't compete fairly because I've got a TruTrac in the back, which puts me in Mod class at an RTV against ARBs which psssht their way around the climbs and corners. I've built a good reliable vehicle, just my interpretation of the 'best' for everything I do with it, not just challenges / RTVs / laning / commuting.

[honitonhobbit]

On a level playing field I'm fine

I know that feeling

[robhybrid]

At the event at west harptree a few weeks ago I would say more than 80% of the vehicles there had front and rear lockers and front and rear winches.

There was a huge range of budget from I guess 5 k to over 50k depending on new/sh self built to custom built.

I would be happy to put them all in the same class.

I would allso be happy to have the same driver-co driver combination and expect to complete an almost identical amount of punches.

Gwyn and I came equal first and spent most of the day without a working rear diff lock, we also spent time helping our team members, 1 with a broken (undersized) winch cut off switch while half way up to a punch, we double line pulled him up and lowered him back down, acted as ground ancor on a couple of occasions, helped manouver a team mates land rover in amongst rocks.

Experiance and good team work in my opinion will allways far out do what a checque book can do.

Allthough I have used the expression "all the gear but no idea" in the past, everybody has to learn somewhere and it is each persons choice as to how they spend their money.

If we put too much emphasis on "classes" are we detering people who have proudly bought new toys from entering competitions?

It is by entering competitions thet you gain "challenge" experiance.

[pugwash]

Jim

If you look at the vehicles around at the moment how many are actually that different, with the majority the biggest difference is in the build quality.

yep- 90, simexes, ARBs, Ashcrofts, hardened shafts, Cage, tuned tdi- standard challenge spec. However we shouldn't just let the sport end here- you can spend the same money and get a very very different vehicle, and this innovation should be encouraged- look how far we have come in 10 years!

Most vehicles use a standard LR suspension set up with longer springs/shocks or a simple and archaic design. Most are the same or similar wheel base. Limited choice of engines, tyres don't vary much, traction aids are the same. Winches probably count as the biggest variant. Practise and honing of skill coupled to reliability/build quality equals results. The two things that muck up the figures are the driving geniuses in the cheap basic motor and the radical builders with skill.

yep as above

Take yourself. Very limited driving experience but intelligent, quick thinking and able to develop. You want to compete and compete at a highish level right from the word go. You have a reasonable budget. So you opt to spend your way past the basic skills stage. Sensible move.

from my point of view i want to maximise the return from my money- i would rather spend a largish lump up front than just spend a bit every month. I am going to disagree with the VERY limited bit, but i have a huge amount to learn- i have gone as far as i want to with a totally standard vehicle (which i believe was a brilliant learning tool), and i have made the decision to build a very capable vehicle which will take me a long time to learn to use properly- but i will be extremely effective in the end as i will know both mine and the vehicles capabilities very very quickly.

You are buying yourself into a level that allows you to compete head to head. yet if you had identical vehicles Tony would wup you ass for the first few seasons, then as you built up skill you would maybe do a bit of wupin'.

absolutely- many many people would whup my ass but i'm not really bothered about that- i am looking for solid long term results- i fullly expect to come last a number of times by myself! I'm happy with that as long as i learn.

You use Euian as an example and a good one. He has always competed on a level playing field and as such his inate skill shines through.

this is somewhat true- however his team do have more money than others and are more effective- even he isn't on a true level playing field

This is why I feel that a decent handicap/class system for challenges, along with proper scrutineering is the way to go. It levels the playing field. I can pootle along with my basic as b*gg*ry vehicle and have a chance at wupin' you ass in your all singing all dancing Carlos Fandango motor. This will give you the chance to hone your skills so that they are equal to the motor you drive. A bit like Mr Challis really.

yep- i totally agree that a handicap/class system is fair and equalling but it MUSN'T stifle innovation.

So yahboosucks to you

right back at ya hairy rubbish beardy armchair man

[MogLite]

Until the sport has regular sponsorship and decent prizes, I cannot see the point of too many (any) classes.

Seems the some of the people asking for clases just want to win a pot, which for me personally, that is not a goal.

I've helped organise many punch days, and the happiest people always seem to be those in a stock'ish vehicle who are finding out for the first time what their vehicle is capable of, a £5.99 pot from a shoe-repair shop won't make their day any better.

Classes based on vehicles don't work. A Suzuki with a well setup 8274 on the front, a good crew and a pair of long waffles is a formidable opponent.

There was a system a few years ago - might have been Martin Lewis. If you've done less than 3 events, you are a novice, otherwise anything else goes.

[honitonhobbit]

to you big man

[Mark90]

Experiance and good team work in my opinion will allways far out do what a checque book can do.

Allthough I have used the expression "all the gear but no idea" in the past, everybody has to learn somewhere and it is each persons choice as to how they spend their money.

If we put too much emphasis on "classes" are we detering people who have proudly bought new toys from entering competitions?

It is by entering competitions thet you gain "challenge" experiance.

But if you want to do well in the modified class you need both a good experinced crew and a reasonable cheque book, as there are many good experinced crews that have the not only the ability but the toys too, ie it's the ones with "all the gear and a good idea" that you have to watch out for.

My 90 on little 32" tyres has a detroit in the rear and a winch at the front, no uprated shafts or anything else fancy. So that is in modified class against the glut of 90's twin arbs, twin 8274's, 35" simex and uprated shafts/CV's/etc so they can use their lockers with (relative) confidence and anything else even more exotic such as moglite/petal/whatever. So to be cometative my driving skills have to make up for a fair bit of vehicle deficincey, which takes some doing when pitted against someone with all the toys who can drive well and there are a few who can.

So when I entered the AWDC event at 7S I removed the detroit locker so i could compete in standard class. Why? So I could compete on a level playing field and see how I measured up against the other drivers. Would I have got a tin pot had I been in modified? Not an F'ing chance. Would I have enjoyed myself as much if I was in modified? Quite possibly, a good days competing is a good days competing where ever you finish. Would I have pushed as hard if I was in the modified class knowing i would undoubtedly come no where in the placings? Probably not as I would not have felt so competative and therefore less likely to push myself or the truck.

If I want to leave my locker in and maybe fit a rear winch then I have to either accept the fact that my truck will be at a disadvantage to many others in the modified class, and that maybe I'm just there to have a good time and make up the numbers, or find the money to get all (or at least most) of the toys and see how I measure up.

It's not about collecting tin pots for me but it's nice to see how you measure up as a driver against others, better or worse, but at least if it's a level playing field you know where you stand.

[darthdicky]

I personally think a cage is more useful than a rear winch/lockers etc. I'm not into smashing my vehicle up so in competitions before have spent ages using waffles and the winch to get around an inconveniently placed tree, where someone with a cage has just lent on it and gone round in seconds!

Rear winch is useful where the punches have been set up to use one - depends on who's set them out really. Also useful where you have to get punches on both sides of the vehicle.

Lockers are great but I'd rather have fiddle brakes to begin with. Not sure why nobody's done rear steer yet as that would make life a lot easier, but I suppose the legality stuff is a problem as well as actually making it work.

Its nice to compete against highly specced trucks, and with a decent handicap system see how you do, but the problem now is that there are a number of people who are very very good, so punches are made a lot harder and potentially damaging - see the number of rolls/half-rolls at the interclub challenge for example!

Not sure why I'm saying this really as my budget (ie. nothing) is more suited to co-driving/photographing at the moment

Richard

[filthy boy]

Must agree with Moglite. Seems classes really matter if you are a pot hunter. You don't really need that to have a good day or learn about your own talent or lack of it.

FB

[will_warne]

Until the sport has regular sponsorship and decent prizes, I cannot see the point of too many (any) classes.

Seems the some of the people asking for clases just want to win a pot, which for me personally, that is not a goal.

I've helped organise many punch days, and the happiest people always seem to be those in a stock'ish vehicle who are finding out for the first time what their vehicle is capable of, a £5.99 pot from a shoe-repair shop won't make their day any better.

Classes based on vehicles don't work. A Suzuki with a well setup 8274 on the front, a good crew and a pair of long waffles is a formidable opponent.

There was a system a few years ago - might have been Martin Lewis. If you've done less than 3 events, you are a novice, otherwise anything else goes.

Yes, this was part of the point I was trying to get across. I don't enter events to win a pot but to have a good time. I'm also not interested in prizes; I'd far rather have the cash equivalent given to a charity of choice. My aim of the weekend is simply to compete against myself and I'm happy if I feel I've driven well, my co-driver's done a good job and the vehicle's done what I want it to reliably. I think one of the best aspects of the sport is how friendly it is and if it gets too competitive that'll be lost.

The last thing I want to see happen to the sport is to have control tyre or winch rules introduced. There are some events where its starting to get that way but I, personally, don't think the sport should go that way.

I think Rob's recent win at the AWDC event shows what a good driver and bitch can do. Rob isn't driving an expensive truck; probably one of the cheapest in the field, it's well thought out but its fairly standard 'challenge' spec.

What's interesting is that, so far, no one has mentioned winch mods which I'm slightly suprised about. IMHO a good winch is probably the most important tool you can have!

[MogLite]

What's interesting is that, so far, no one has mentioned winch mods which I'm slightly suprised about. IMHO a good winch is probably the most important tool you can have!

....if you can't drive, can't read the ground, can't think laterally and just need to haul 2.5 tonnes of Land Rover towards a punch in a straight line, then you are right

Coat - why I thank you

Hat - decent of you

Gloves and scarf - ah the complete ensemble....I'll be off to the door then

[Andy-T]

You are all missing the point!

The Winch Challenge scene is run by very few individuals that organise these type of events.

They decide what they will allow.

They decide where/when they are going to be held.

They decide the format.

If you don't like any particular event - don't enter!!

Build yor vehicle how you want and enter the type of events that suit your vehicle and ability.

This is the way to self-level the sport.

Only the events that attract entrants will survive, irrespective of the general feelings within the sport.

I am not in favour of any official regulations put in place by a governing body - this will lead to a screw-tin- hearing nightmare driven by individual interpretation.

Train wreck time!!!

Andy Thomlinson.

[honitonhobbit]

You are all missing the point!

The Winch Challenge scene is run by very few individuals that organise these type of events.

They decide what they will allow.

They decide where/when they are going to be held.

They decide the format.

If you don't like any particular event - don't enter!!

Build yor vehicle how you want and enter the type of events that suit your vehicle and ability.

This is the way to self-level the sport.

Only the events that attract entrants will survive, irrespective of the general feelings within the sport.

I am not in favour of any official regulations put in place by a governing body - this will lead to a screw-tin- hearing nightmare driven by individual interpretation.

Train wreck time!!!

Andy Thomlinson.

Ah but that is all changing Andy. As we converse there are three MSA member 4x4 clubs working towards clubmans challenge series next year. All are looking to the MSA to cover the liabilities/provide adequate regs (because they are a bit pants at the moment). One of those clubs is going to adopt the new winch regs coming into force for international events. The same club is going to adopt realtime scrutineering by it's MSA approved Scruts. Trials and Comps are down in numbers but there is a huge interest in challenges, despite the tiny number of people who actually compete at the moment. The ground is ripe for clubmans events. I for one would salute the formation of a proper challenge circuit (unless of course the ARC get hold of it).

Why would scrutineering be a nightmare? MSA cage specs would need to be different yes, but it would control the layout of the challenge, away from 'bl**dy stupid' to bl**dy difficult AND it would QA build quality.

What harm has scrutineering done to Comps, Trials, Rallee, Raid, Endurance or Short Course? None. The only worries would be to those with substandard vehicles and that can be nothing but good.

Building your vehicle how you want is controlled by two things

1). Budget (as in limited)

2). Maybe some people want less harsh but more technical sections, maybe some want to drive more. There are so few actual events around compared to the potential number of entrants it beggers belief. Maybe Mark90, TC, Bish, TonyW, V8Camel, Mark, Orange, GBMud and a few others want to have a challenge where it doesn't matter that you have 32" tyres, no rear winch, two ARBs between 10 vehicles...

[TJ101]

Been shot down in flames before ,, But when the MSA get involved, expect the costs to increases, at a guess up to 10 fold !!! and a pile of red tape,, rules and regulations, doled out from the blue book !!

[honitonhobbit]

Been shot down in flames before ,, But when the MSA get involved, expect the costs to increases, at a guess up to 10 fold !!! and a pile of red tape,, rules and regulations, doled out from the blue book !!

True, but it hasn't happened yet with the AWDC/Sc****** series, nor did it with trialling (even the SuperMod debacle) or Comps. It was the FIA that did for Endurance though, barstewards

Anyway, how are you Tim? Well I trust? Fancy a drink sometime?

[TOR4x4]

The only worries would be to those with substandard vehicles and that can be nothing but good.

i agree completely, a cage should be the very first thing to be fitted if doing any kind of motorsport IMHO. and not just a bit of scaffold pole welded together, a 2 1/2 tonne 90 or what ever they weigh can do some serious damage falling down a hill.

Nobody rolls intentionally so the excuse of not intending to roll is not a very clever one.

Consistent scrutineering would also be a good thing, not just testing steering and fire extinguisher but also how safe the inside of the cab is, sharp items, loose heavy hard items etc....also the outside of the vehicle, ground anchors just thrown in the back for example.

Those few things do not neccesarily cost a fortune in motorsport terms,