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Winch Challenge Vehicle Classes


bishbosh

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I'd like to lend my support to Pugwash's idea of points for different mods. These then deciding on which of a limited number of classes you fall in to.

Things like the weight of the vehicle, cage, endoskeleton wings, portals can all be taken in to account.

The thing I like about this is you can pick & mix which features you think are most valuable for a given event.

I think that may even enhance peoples creativity in vehicle design but without the whole challenge scene becoming even more dominated by those with big budgets.

I totted up my score on James's system & wound up in the 'Proto' class and then some - very depressing - made my lousy scores seem even worse!

Si

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For me Camel represents days of winching in almost bog standard vehicles, with bog standard winches, ikkle tyres...

but Surely Lovepuppy, at the time those vehicles were cutting edge running that fattest tyres available?

and as for Bathplugs notion of fuel and sounds...... dream on wee man, open tractor stacks rock and as for fuel consumption ? eeek B)

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Do we want to see the winch challenge scene grow with more people joining in and competing in more competitions or would we prefer it is there were about the same number of people competing in the same classes in the sasme competitions?

What I want to say is this: I have a more or less standard 90 with a few diff guards etc., a 2" lift, 255/85s and an ARB in the rear. If I were to enter a comp I would be in the modified class despite not owning a winch. Now, assuming that I sold the locker and spent the money fitting a winch, I would be in the standard class. Fine.

What if I wanted to "grow-up" a bit and get into the modified class? I could reinstate the locker and become modified but with no real hope of being competetive. Who wants to be in the big league with no hope of winning? Not many people I'll wager.

If, as the owner of a standard class car, I were to want to play competetivly with the big boys I would have to buy...

Another winch - £500

A pair of lockers - £1500 (Is that about right?)

Truck-cab conversion - cost neutral due to sale of hard top

Roll cage - £500 (I guess that is a conservative estimate?)

Second car for day to day use as a truck cab is no use - £1500

...and find a top winch monkey - I still firmly believe that they make the biggest single difference between success and failure. The driver (sorry guys) need only be a trained chimp who knows left from right and can take instruction.

I make that £4000, a lot to find in one hit and more than I would be happy to speculate on something I was not certain I would enjoy. If I could spend the money gradually and move up to an intermediate class I would be happier.

I do not personally want to do winch challenges just now, I rather enjoy setting them out and watching others compete. I learn a lot from doing that and one day, who knows, I may have the cash and inclination to get involved as a competitor.

Chris

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If, as the owner of a standard class car, I were to want to play competetivly with the big boys I would have to buy...

Another winch - £500

A pair of lockers - £1500 (Is that about right?)

Truck-cab conversion - cost neutral due to sale of hard top

Roll cage - £500 (I guess that is a conservative estimate?)

Second car for day to day use as a truck cab is no use - £1500

A very conservative list, not even touching on tyres and axles (except the lockers).

I agree with what you are saying Chris.

My dilema at the moment is I can't afford to get my truck competative in modified so do I stop any developement on it (rear winch etc) and put the rear diff back to open to stay in standard class untill I can make to jump to modified with some conviction :unsure:

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This is why an split modified class would be a good idea i think.

If you look at the points system i envisaged above, it is quite well weighted to give a pretty clear class system for simple mods, medium modded, and totally kitted out.

It doesn't artificially level the playing field but will compare like for like whilst allowing people the freedom to decide on what mods they like.

You could easily have three class structures and one overall winner in any competition- there is no reason why a car in the mod class couldn't beat a car in the proto class if they had the right skills and team (especially if the guys in the proto class were less than experienced).

I believe a three tier system will encourage growth and evolution of the sport.

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I think someone further up the thread (Bathtub?) had it bang on - you can set out a challenge event that is self-levelling, EG there are some easy punches that are non-damaging that the majority of people can get, and some that only the big boys will be able to do. Using Paul's automatic punch weighting spreadsheet thing means the "little" trucks can be running round having good non-damaging fun getting lots of lower scoring punches while the big boys can avoid the scrum and go for a few more extreme ones.

At the end of the day it sdtill comes down to teamwork and driving ability - a well organised "small" team should stand just as much chance of a high place as a well organised "big" team.

This does depend rather on who sets out the event - for example I know that Paul W's challenges are done in this fashion and that Paul Challis also lays out a very fair (but still evil) challenge. However, some other events may not be interested in attracting the "little guys" (some perhaps on purpose) so how do you know?

The minimal stock/modified/mental weighting that Paul Challis uses (and that the Shires nicked :D) has worked well time and time again and seen very even placings. Whatever you do there will always be someone who is inconvenienced by any handicap system, so keeping it simple IMHO is a good idea. The more rules you have the more some people will bend them or be put out by them.

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I like the points per driver aid idea. As said above, it gives the driver the ability to choose what he/she thinks is best for their driving style or even the specific event.

I vote for James' (JST) 3 tier structure.

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Every scoring system has plus and minus points. One of the drawbacks with the automatic punch scoring spreadsheet (which came from Mrs GBMUD) is that one or two high scoring punches can dramatically change the results, and a good solid performance can be beat with a bit of luck.

I've been on the benefiting end of this at BDB06 where me and Bish got two punches that no-one else got (and a few that only one other team got) and this made a big difference to our score giving us a placing. The punches weren't difficult and most teams there could have got them if they had found them or got round to doing them (I don't think any team came close to getting all the punches we certainly didn't even see all the punches). Now we knew what scoring system was being employed and played to that, ie we left punches that had seen a lot of teams and went for those with few/no tyre tracks to them or ones we just liked the look of (not necessarily the easiest).

I'm not sure if I prefer this weighted scoring system or a flat scoring system as used in the AWDC events. However in either case you need to make decisions about which punches to attempt to maximise your score (unless you are good enough to get that all), it's just that the thought process needs adjusting to match the scoring system.

I'm not a fan of handicap scoring to try and level the field (eg mods score 80%) so that there is just one 'leveled' class as it is very difficult to judge how much of a advantage a locker/rear winch/whatever is and it will very from event to event or punch to punch for that matter. The only level field is to compete against similar vehicles so it comes down to driver/bitch abilities, which bring us back to classes. And I think the number of 'aids' (lockers or winches) are a good measure, maybe with tyre size restrictions in the lower class.

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A very conservative list, not even touching on tyres and axles (except the lockers).

That occured to me just now, I guess tyres and novelty halfshafts accounts for a further £1200 or so - I hope nobody's wife is reading this! :)

Chris

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why not apply a handicap like golf. Ie if you score well in a competion your allowance comes down.

say start with + 500 points allowance. As you get better your allowance goes down towards 0.

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why not apply a handicap like golf. Ie if you score well in a competion your allowance comes down.

say start with + 500 points allowance. As you get better your allowance goes down towards 0.

Can work if well thought out but I competed in a club challenge and got 19 out of 20 punchs and spent the last hour looking for the last punch but the event was won by somone that only got 10 of the punches and if I had got all 20 I still could not win. against a car with out lockers and only one winch.

(That was only a club funday challenge). but still you do get the hump inside when you are beaten like that.

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Can work if well thought out but I competed in a club challenge and got 19 out of 20 punchs and spent the last hour looking for the last punch but the event was won by somone that only got 10 of the punches and if I had got all 20 I still could not win. against a car with out lockers and only one winch.

(That was only a club funday challenge). but still you do get the hump inside when you are beaten like that.

I remember that! A pair of V8 auto 90's on grippy 32" tyres and 8274's at the front won. As they didn't have big tyres and lockers they got a 10 punch advantage.

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I remember that! A pair of V8 auto 90's on grippy 32" tyres and 8274's at the front won. As they didn't have big tyres and lockers they got a 10 punch advantage.

Thats my point all the handicap systems heavily lean towards the standard cars.

That why i think the % score for harder punches is the only way to go . I as well have been beaten by standard Suzukis by quantity of punches as they got as all punchs were worth the same but we started with a huge minus to begin with & with no hard punches we didnt stand a chance , we worked it out later that we needed to get all punches & a standard car only needed to get 20% to beat us !!!!!!!!!!! what the FKUK is that all about :rolleyes:

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I very much liked Pauls concept at at Slindon last year with the fewer people getting the punch the higher it's value......

This needs to be taken further....

Classes are something that will always divide people, evryone has there view.

Keep it simple, and except that some will not like it...... :rolleyes:

I believe that classes should be kept seperate IE: No Handicap system :rolleyes: Thats just B*llocks,

A Man spends every hour of spare time building his car for ayear, and gets wopped by someone in a standard car......NO fun

But we also need to get organsiers to make the punches?sections less vehicle damaging not easier.... :D

Make the approaches difficult, but why the punch...?? Pointless :P

I know this is sometimes not easy to do but....? We must if the sport is to continue, or the new comers will find it harrowing to say the least.

One day competitions are fast becoming "Whos got the strongest body panels" or "Who cares least about there truck"

Fact or fiction..?

Discuss :D

Jim :)

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[One day competitions are fast becoming "Whos got the strongest body panels" or "Who cares least about there truck"

Fact or fiction..?

Discuss :D

Jim :)

what about 3 or 5 day whos got the strongest panel events !!!!

Or surely that also mean axles ,gearbox etc as if you can kane you truck into a section & drive it because all the drive train can take it & not winch all day then whats the problem with that surely thats what bull bars & rock/tree sliders are for ?????????????????

Argyll 2 days 1 dent !!!!

Bryns well enough said :blink:

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Have been reading this thread with interest but have only now been able to contribute to the discussion due to stupid TalkTalk cutting off my broadband.

It strikes me that many contributing their views are not involved with the organisation of events. From my perspective the last thing I would want to do is introduce any system, whether it be classes or handicaps or punch weighting that means it is going to take hours to work out the very complexed results and then even longer to explain to the guy who got the most punches why he didn't actually win and was beaten by a stock SJ with one winch and road tyres.

I believe these things should be kept simple and it should be down to the quality of vehicle prep, driver and co-driver ability to find out who wins.

We set out punches keeping in mind the level of entries in each class - Standard and Modified - we accept that the modifieds will get the easier punches quickly and get out fast, leaving the standard cars more time to work on them. Equally we put out punches that the Standard teams won't even dream of attempting and these keep the Modified cars busy for the majority of the day. Only once in two years has a car got all the punches and they still didn't win the event (due to poor Special Stage scores).

Everyone is kept very busy for six hours and goes home with a smile on their faces, that is the most important thing in my opinion.

We certainly won't be changing anything for next year other than the naming of the classes.

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One day competitions are fast becoming "Whos got the strongest body panels" or "Who cares least about there truck"

Fact or fiction..?

Fiction :P

Our current top 4 drivers all have very nice straight trucks thank you very much. Our current leader uses his as a daily driver and is very straight, our current 2nd belongs in a museum it is so clean and tidy !

There are some who choose to crash and burn - that is not the organisers fault

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Chris, - i paid about £2k for ARBs, Cvs and shafts on mine and £500 for th tyres on rims.

Well it looks like scoring an event is about to get harder and i need a faster laptop!!!!!

I reckon different classes (max 3 as previously indicated), prizes in each class and weighted punches, which are worth less points the more people who get them - but specific to each class.

eg a 200 punch that 10 mods get is worth 20 points, but if a std gets that same punch, and is the only std to get it they get 200ponts. Thats what i ran for FSWC3 anyway.

I also use Mrs GBMUDs excel sheet and it works a treat, thanks Chris.

At the end you have to compare like for like vehicles and put the emphasis on team work and competancy of knowing the task in hand.

Also strongly agree with Petes point that punches can be easy just difficult access etc. i tried to achive that on my event, but its not always easy.

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Chris, - i paid about £2k for ARBs, Cvs and shafts on mine and £500 for th tyres on rims.

Well it looks like scoring an event is about to get harder and i need a faster laptop!!!!!

I reckon different classes (max 3 as previously indicated), prizes in each class and weighted punches, which are worth less points the more people who get them - but specific to each class.

eg a 200 punch that 10 mods get is worth 20 points, but if a std gets that same punch, and is the only std to get it they get 200ponts. Thats what i ran for FSWC3 anyway.

I also use Mrs GBMUDs excel sheet and it works a treat, thanks Chris.

At the end you have to compare like for like vehicles and put the emphasis on team work and competancy of knowing the task in hand.

Also strongly agree with Petes point that punches can be easy just difficult access etc. i tried to achive that on my event, but its not always easy.

Sounds like you'll be up all night before the results are posted then...

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yep valid comment it depends on the no of competitors, but assuming 2 of you inputing results, 40-50 punches and 3 classes then i reckon 15mins for 20 competitors assuming competitors team details are already pre loaded etc.

thats another reason why not to go for the aforemention scoring system on various aids etc as people will cheat/find ways to get around it, just beeter to have a clear cut view in my opinion.

std - 1 winch or a locker, any tyres

mod 1 - more than 1 winch or 1 winch and a locker,

mod 2 - anything else.

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yep valid comment it depends on the no of competitors, but assuming 2 of you inputing results, 40-50 punches and 3 classes then i reckon 15mins for 20 competitors assuming competitors team details are already pre loaded etc.

thats another reason why not to go for the aforemention scoring system on various aids etc as people will cheat/find ways to get around it, just beeter to have a clear cut view in my opinion.

std - 1 winch or a locker, any tyres

mod 1 - more than 1 winch or 1 winch and a locker,

mod 2 - anything else.

OK last event, 31 cars, 60 punches, 3 special stages - we had the results out in 50 minutes which I was disappointed in. We had all the details,formulas etc pre loaded into a spreadsheet and double checked every result.

To my mind thats still too long when people have 200+ miles to drive home.

However we have a solution which will solve all of that and cheating too....

All will be revealed :D

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bribery? :) sod buying gear for the truck just give a load of dosh to the marshals (as a regular marshal on the mike wolfe i can see this working for me :) )

To me the idea of doing handicaps or classes is just that you then get to feel competitive. I do go to challenge myself, however it is also nice to feel that you did well in comparision to other people.

If anyone wants to drop me copies of previous challenge scores I will look at producing an algorithm and possibly software dedicated to the process.

I do think that having winners in each class is important and an overall winner too. Though that does start to stretch the resources for meagre prizes.

If someone can come in thier series 3 std 2.25 motor on muds and take the standard cup home it will encourage them to keep going, there is plenty of room for big boys and big toys, but I really think getting people in right from the go would do a lot for the sport.

Thing is to get the scoring and systems right before implementation. we have loads of past results (i.e. rough specs for motors and experience of crews along with punches obtained) to run an algorithm against to make sure that the majority would be happy.

If you want quick scoring then do away with punch cards and punches, you want RFID :)

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