Winch Challenge Vehicle Classes

[bishbosh]

At the moment, the winch challenge scene is largely divided into "Standard" and "Modified" classes.

Typically this means that if you have more than one winch or any lockable axle differentials (including detroits and trutracs etc) then you are in modified class.

I think this is extremely punitive to those who are "mid build" if you like - i.e, they are in the process of modifying their vehicle so may only have a front winch and a rear locker (this is my case currently). This puts the vehicle into modified becasue of the rear locker where it will be competing against other vehicles with two lockers and two winches and probably large tyres. Obviously (ignoring driver ability ) this puts the vehicle at a considerable disadvantage, especially when on many challenges there are numerous punches that are unobtainable without a rear winch.

I think there should be a third classification of vehicle that levels the playing field a bit more. I know this will lead to calls of "when do you stop" and "we'll end up with 100's of classes" but I don't believe that to be true.

My thoughts are that tyre size should not come in to it as ultimately the bigger tyres make certain bits easier, but the same terrain could still be crossed on smaller tyres just using a different technique.

It gets a bit more difficult when looking at lockers - the rear locker in my opinion transforms the ability of the vehicle, considerably more so than a front locker (from what I've heard), but twin lockers are certainly better than one alone.

As stated above, a rear winch is also a huge benefit.

So , what do you folk think to having "Modified" as one locker and one winch or no lockers and two winches and "super modified" (or a name of your choice ) for more gadgets than that?

Oh, and the AWDC's idea that if it was factory fitted means it can compete as "standard" is rubbish in my opinion. Whether it was fitted in the factory or in a shed, a locker is a locker!

Right, that's the blue touch paper lit, I'm going to retire a safe distance

[Les Brock]

I had a similar thought...well roughly the same...

When mine goes though its SVA, with the lockers, that means they are fitted as standard don't it

I think challenges will soon be the way of most motor sports out of reach of all those without Will's wallet

I mean there arn't that many people that drive to and from anymore are there, traybacks are as common as muck already, like the Simex'd 90 truckcab was last year

Progress is good, but grass roots needs to be there as well

[steve_a]

handicap - challenge events could become the new golf (well I'm sure a large proportion of winch bitches would consider it a good walk in the country ruined )

a point for each of the elements you have, eg 1 point for each winch and diff locker

a point for every inch over 33 on tyres (since 33 is not that big is it?)

you could set the handicap at a standard challenge starter, i.e front winch, 33", 2" lift

could maybe

Just a bit like the spreadsheet used for scoring the punches by no of successful vehicles.

be interesting to try the scoring system on past events and see who would have won

[LR90]

handicap - challenge events could become the new golf (well I'm sure a large proportion of winch bitches would consider it a good walk in the country ruined )

a point for each of the elements you have, eg 1 point for each winch and diff locker

a point for every inch over 33 on tyres (since 33 is not that big is it?)

you could set the handicap at a standard challenge starter, i.e front winch, 33", 2" lift

could maybe

Just a bit like the spreadsheet used for scoring the punches by no of successful vehicles.

be interesting to try the scoring system on past events and see who would have won

That's not a bad idea. Works well for racing dingys though the handicaps have had a long tome to evolve and suit different crft depending on the conditions.

Like many I'm too far in to be std but don't have the budget to bring it up to last years modified level.

It may not suit the more competative, and the narrower the class definition the clearer the difference driving skill makes, but it would be a good way for a rag tag field of differing vehicles to 'compete' and have a lot of fun.

Be fun drawing it up though, v8 or diesel? hydraulic or leccy winch? Should cause some debate on the relative rankings

The other option I had in mind is a sort of national league table. This is rather out of date now but look at my Top Trucks.

[honitonhobbit]

Makes a lot of sense to me

The few people who can afford to build the big money vehicles or who have the skill to build them are soon going to end up doing more and more stupid things in order to justify the expense. Eithere that or they will be forced to go abroad to events where massive modification is the norm just to be able to compete.

Put aside those that spend money for the image and go back to the grass routes reason why.

Competition

I would dearly love to compete in the odd event but it would be daft. Why? Well unlike those of limitless funds (Will ) my vehicle is my day to day transport, family hack, work tool blah blah. I could be reasonably competitive but only at the expense of the vehicle and I not willing to spend money I don't have in modifying the vehicle anymore than it is already simply to reduce the potential damage.

If there were a proper class system then I would compete albeit occasionally. A class win is as good as an overall in my opinion.

I think there should be:

a Standard Class - no mods bar mild suspension lift and a front winch. No lockers, standard size tyres and no handicap

modified - a Bish at the moment class. 80% of score

Super Mod - front and rear lockers, F & R winches tyres upto 35". 60% of score

Unlimited - Petal, moglite, will warne, Paul Challis, Pugwash. 50% of score

This throws more onus back on tactics, driving skill and thinking; whilst making the sport obtainable by all

[Guest diesel_jim]

I reckon they should have a "welsh hillfarmers" class...

You need a Tdi 90, with bald 205's and an ifor williams rear cover thing (and for the extreme hillfarmers class, a collie!)

[pugwash]

i think we should have an "extreme ultimate" class.

this is for anyone with the parts from scrapiron bolted on. this class could start in the car park, and stay in the car park!

i reckon you are right though Bish something should be done.

3 classes would currently be sufficient i feel.

Could be done on points like steve's handicap system but a bit simpler maybe

2 point for each winch

4 points for each locker

2 point for wheels over 32

3 point for wheels over 37

2 point for beadlocks

2 points for major body mod- ie bobbing, traybacking, bullnosing, using cage as bodywork.

1 point for underbody armour

1 point for hi-lift (although this might be silly as hardly anyone uses them anymore)

1 point for GPS

3 points for no tax/mot

8 points and under for standard

8-15 points for modded

16 and over would be for proto

[istruggle2gate11]

Certainly a can of worms...

I really do think that portals require their own class or indeed a severe handicap if they wish to enter our standard Uk events, it is without doubt that those things are much better, which could ultimately ruin it for those of us on budgets or not wishing to have them - not a dig, I understand and realise why people fit them.

Of course if portals keep rising in popularity, then a class of their own must be a given.

[TJ101]

Strange,, as was only talking about this last weekend !!

In my case,, seams to me, a rear winch, is now getting more useful, and a distinct advantage in the Mod class, otherwise you are not competitive,

Thinking about taking the locker pump out tomorrow, and giving to James on sat morning, for the FCSW3 so can drop back into the standard class

100% with you on this one Bish !!

[FridgeFreezer]

Sounding an awful lot like the russian classes -

TR1 = As it left the factory

TR2 = Standard with MT's up to X% bigger than stock and perhaps a few minor bolt-ons (I forget the details)

TR3 = Modified but with some limits (I think it's no portals and limit on tyre size or somesuch)

TR4 = Petal

Although interestingly they impose a 40" limit on tyres in TR4 too, presumably on the theory that if you don't limit tyres it would end up as a battle of the chequebooks

[white90]

Good points

but at the CSW events

the standard class Suzuki

1 winch no lockers wipes the floor with all comers. :

the class system would give all those attending a good chance of a result rather than coming way down the entire field.

As HH My car is my daily transport/gets driven to and so far from events.

will never be a T/C with a tray back which for Winch challenge events is far more use than window less H/T.

this could be easily scored using Jennys score system, just using multiple spreadsheets, This would make for a very interesting event.

the Next BDB07 I'm going to adopt this system with a prize for the class winners rather than 1st-3rd prizes overall.

that way if you have x2 winches/lockers etc etc you can utilise all of it

and if you don't your only up against similarly equipped vehicles.

[dirtydiesel]

Sounding an awful lot like the russian classes -

TR1 = As it left the factory

TR2 = Standard with MT's up to X% bigger than stock and perhaps a few minor bolt-ons (I forget the details)

TR3 = Modified but with some limits (I think it's no portals and limit on tyre size or somesuch)

TR4 = Petal

Although interestingly they impose a 40" limit on tyres in TR4 too, presumably on the theory that if you don't limit tyres it would end up as a battle of the chequebooks

TR3 is portals and up to 35" tyres.

[Turbocharger]

Hear hear - at James's last event the punches were laid out tight between the trees, but the end consequence of misjudging was always going to be body damage. As a result, I can't be competitive (at all) so I was taking short routes out / going under tape / cheating to avoid damage. I don't really feel able to compete without sustaining damage (or learning to drive properly, and that's not likely) so I haven't entered a challenge since then.

[will_warne]

Bish, you've got a very good point. I do think there is a place for a 'Super Production' class but I think that's enough. I don't believe that there is, yet, a need for an unlimited class. If you look at a lot of the results this year, portaled vehicles haven't been running away with the trophies and severla wins were with 'bolt on' 90s that were driven well and were reliable. This is a sport where the driver and co-driver make a big differnace and I don'ty think this should be diluted with too many classes. However, I think club level events that exclude the modified class are a good thing as it'll encourage growth from the bottom up. The way the Shires run the handyacp system is to give extra points to less capable vehicles ie no traction aids = +250 points, tyres 32" or under = +250 points, no winches = +250 points, wheelbase over 94" = +250 points. This would mean Bish would get and extra 500 points over me at the start of the day. Its not perfect but it seems to work OK. You could, of cource expand it further to include multiple lockers, HUGE tyres, portals and rear winches BUT I think simple is good. If I was to run an event now I'd say:

Production: tyres no larger than factory but tread is free. Drive train must remain unchanged. ETC or factory fitted traction aids may not be used. 1 winch allowed.

Super Production: Tyres 33" and under but tread is free. Three of the following are allowed: ETC, Rear Locker/LSD, Front Locker/LSD, Front winch, Rear winch. Body and chassis mods are allowed but the silhoette must remain recognisable.

Modified: Anything goes but must be road legal, MOTed and insured.

[TJ101]

As a result, I can't be competitive (at all) so I was taking short routes out / going under tape / cheating to avoid damage.

Off the topic slightly,

But doing this John, if you "take short routes out / going under tape / cheat" etc, the points you get whilst doing this, robs the other competitors who also get that punch of those points,,,

So not only cheating yourself, but also your fellow entrants

Now, I wonder how I know that

[FridgeFreezer]

What's wrong with factory traction aids? At the end of the day ETC/HDC are no substitute for either real lockers or good driving.

[V8CAMEL]

you will be wanting a class just for girlie range rover drivers

[Andy]

I reckon they should have a "welsh hillfarmers" class...

You need a Tdi 90, with bald 205's and an ifor williams rear cover thing (and for the extreme hillfarmers class, a collie!)

thats orgasmic farmer & rover then - oh no hes got a disco, still does the farmer thing & puts it places it should never go without damaging it.

as for the topic, an extra class would be good. most keen people mod their trucks past the stock class yet are nowhere near the full challenge truck. the way the classes are at the mo seems to exclude most 'fun trucks' from being competitive.

ive got a lift, oversize tyres, front winch, rear detriot & front tri-trac. i cant see my disco being anything as good as a proper challenge truck though.

[honitonhobbit]

What's wrong with factory traction aids? At the end of the day ETC/HDC are no substitute for either real lockers or good driving.

Jon, I hate to wee on your chips but ETC with aggressive tyres and a locable center diff is bl**dy awesome. Slip in an LSD and it will leave any locker shuffling it's feet at the back of the que (is that how you spell que?)

I have had the pleasure of driving both Disco2 and Defender with ETC/CDL and Michelin MT's/Firestone SAT's over long off road distances through some pretty poohey conditions and even though it galls me to say it, Land Rover got it right. Even when the Defender was lumbered with a 1tonne trailer and given beanz through thirty odd clicks of Polish wet stuff over grippy clag, nary a twinge was heard from the drive train AND we could turn corners.

Anyway back to thread.

For once Will seems to be talking sense. I like the big points score thing that Shire do AND it is simple. Simple is good.

[FridgeFreezer]

you will be wanting a class just for girlie range rover drivers

At least it doesn't overheat whilst towing

Dave - I know ETC is good, but not many vehicles with it fitted are in the extreme end of things, they tend to be shiny and hence IMHO deserving of encouragement.

Wonder how long before the big boys start retro-fitting ETC/HDC

Edited further to add: I like the Shire points thing too, mainly because it got Dad, me, and two novices (one of whom went and bought a J**p ) to come 3rd after Tonk/Perv and a gobsh*te nutter in a Zuk on dumper tyres

[will_warne]

Off the topic slightly,

But doing this John, if you "take short routes out / going under tape / cheat" etc, the points you get whilst doing this, robs the other competitors who also get that punch of those points,,,

So not only cheating yourself, but also your fellow entrants

Now, I wonder how I know that

Tim, he was doing it becasue I was telling him to as I was bitching for him when Rob didn't turn up. As there wasn't a second vehicle I was trying to get TC to some of the punches without getting massivly bogged down and blocking up a punch for the day. No tape was broken but I sent him under once. In the end I did the punch far quicker with Rob in a more conventional way but Turbo didn't have a rear winch, or second vehicle, to get him out backwards so we had to get it annother way. I wouldn't advocate this sort of thing if I knew we'd be coming anywhere else but last by quite a long way and wanted to give TC something to do.

Dave, thank you. I totally agree about ETC. You need apply plenty of power but the electrics do work well.

[istruggle2gate11]

Wonder how long before the big boys start retro-fitting ETC/HDC

Neil Whitford fitted a freelander system to the Rock Rod, had it working in principle, but the servo/pump wasnt man enough.

[V8CAMEL]

At least it doesn't overheat whilst towing

that coz i was towing moglite and the tomcat and someone kept putting the brakes on uphill

[filthy boy]

Why not just enter whatever you have and have a good day out? Compete against yourself and the terrain?

My first event was the JBS Summer Challenge in a 90 with 255/85 BFG MTs, a front XD 9000, 2" lift and NO lockers. Had a great time. Enjoyed ourselves. Did the Inch by Winch with the same spec.

(BUt then I got Jac MAc hypoids, chipped, new exhaust cage, more suspension, buckets, harness, on board computer, underdrive and loads more and now I have a tube buggy. )

Interestingly, they had similar debates over on PBB a couple of years ago.

FB

[TOR4x4]

Certainly a can of worms...

I really do think that portals require their own class or indeed a severe handicap if they wish to enter our standard Uk events, it is without doubt that those things are much better, which could ultimately ruin it for those of us on budgets or not wishing to have them - not a dig, I understand and realise why people fit them.

Of course if portals keep rising in popularity, then a class of their own must be a given.

"without doubt these are much better" really??? when???

Good points

but at the CSW events

the standard class Suzuki

1 winch no lockers wipes the floor with all comers. :

all comers??