200 Tdi Timing Belt Oddness

[Mo Murphy]

Afternoon all,

I'm stripping the timing case off the engine to change the crank seal.

Having removed the cover I can see that the timing belt had moved forward on the gears and has touched the cover. Its lost about a quarter of its width.

Now there is a little history on this problem.

When I built the 90 up about 5 or 6 years ago, I changed the engine from Range Rover spec to defender spec using the timing case and manifolds from a scrap donor. I fitted a new Dayco belt and a tensioner. All was fine, did 5000 miles, noticed an oil leak which was from timing case gasket so I stripped it to renew it. On removing the cover, I discovered that the belt had moved forward on the gears and was only half is width. It looked like it had worn on the tensioner. I assumed I had a duff tensioner that was too close to the timing case so put a washer behind the bracket and reassembled it.

That takes me to now, 30000 miles later. It appears that the same problem had occurred again although not quite as serious as previously.

Why is the belt trying to move forwards off the timing gears ?

Some photos below to illustrate the problem.

Mo

[Gazzar]

Belts move when something isn't aligned properly, or some other force is causing them to move. The tensioner must be the main suspect, as every other bugger is incapable of being out of alignment, on account of them rotating parallel to the casing at least once per revolution.

Maybe you need to invest in another washer? Umm?

G.

[Gazzar]

Or is the timing case itself out of alignment? I can't recall, does the tensioner attach to the timing case, or the block?

When I did the timing on my disco TDI 200 it was a job and a half getting the case cover to seal. Copious amounts of heat were required to debuckle it.

Now, I'm worried. Any one got a boroscope?

[pete3000]

Aldi have some on specialbuy on Thurs £70. Along with drill bits, grinding wheels and tool chests etc.

[Gazzar]

Thanks!

[steve b]

Mo

check the FIP pulley wheel for end float and/or nose bearing free play , it's usually end float that causes this , assuming the tensioner is good of course.

cheers

Steveb

[ejparrott]

There's a coincidence...we did a timing belt on a pukka Defender 110 last weekend and it had done exactly the same thing...

I've also just done the belt on my disco 200 and my camshaft is trailing the mark on the casing by half a tooth.....

[Snagger]

I suspect the tensioner or the injection pump axis is slight off, allowing the belt to circumscribe a smaller circumference nearest the cover. It could be bad bearings, a distorted timing case or tensioner bracket, or something on the mating face of the tensioner, the fuel pump or the timing case.

[Tim2809]

I would punt the fuel pump is not square as the back support of the pump is slightly adjustable. Either that or check camshaft sprocket for end float as the 200 is known for it coming loose and wearing the thrust washer

[Mo Murphy]

Thanks for your input chaps. I'll try and check the end float and squareness of the FIP with feeler gauges tomorrow and the cam for end float. The tensioner this time has come from Turners rather than Paddocks, it's stamped with made in england and a number of some sort unlike it's predecessor which had nothing. Fingers crossed it's the tensioner that's the culprit.

I would imagine I could run it for a minute or two before refitting the cover and water pump to check how the belt runs ?

Mo

[vulcan bomber]

Thanks for your input chaps. I'll try and check the end float and squareness of the FIP with feeler gauges tomorrow and the cam for end float. The tensioner this time has come from Turners rather than Paddocks, it's stamped with made in england and a number of some sort unlike it's predecessor which had nothing. Fingers crossed it's the tensioner that's the culprit.

I would imagine I could run it for a minute or two before refitting the cover and water pump to check how the belt runs ?

Mo

I do with mine at every belt change. Only at idle for 30 seconds or so.

[Mo Murphy]

Thanks VB.

Mo

[pete3000]

Casting my mind back to the 300tdi belt issue where a similar thing happens on certain s/n engines. LR issued a mod kit which included a shouldered pulley for the crankshaft to help the belt run truer. I read up on the reasons why it was needed etc at the time. Can seem to remember that the fip/bracket is L shaped if tightened on the engine first, then the fip bolts are pulled tight into the timing case which can pull the casing or pump out of true.

The mod kit went some way to address this but suppose if a timing case is twisted/warped a bit it's not going to be 100%

When i first did my 300tdi the outside shoulder on the pulley was 50% worn and polished, along with the black dust, i do inspect the belt every 6-8 thousand now.

Just wondering if a 300tdi shouldered pulley would fit 200tdi to help the belt find it's true course.

[Mo Murphy]

Today, I've check the camshaft and the FIP for end float and side play and can discern none.

I've slackened off the FIP mounting brackets at the pump, did the nuts on the pump and then re tightened the pump brackets. As they were, there were no gaps between the pump flange and the timing case, so they are square.

There is no discernible distortion of the case and the cover fits squarely.

I've run it for 20 seconds on the new belt and it had settled itself to the outside edge of the timing gears in line with the tensioner outer flange.

Hopefully it was a duff tensioner but I'll check it again after the trip.

Waiting for a dust seal for the cover now, should be here tomorrow then I can get the rest of it fitted up and good to go.

Mo

[JST]

distorted case would be my guess. same issue here.

[pat_pending]

I assumed I had a duff tensioner that was too close to the timing case so put a washer behind the bracket and reassembled it.

I may be missing something, but if you spaced the tensioner away from the face of the timing chest it would cause the belt to run off the front of the other gears and rub against the front cover.

Which is exactly the problem you seem to have.

[Mo Murphy]

Indeed Pat, not one of my finer judgements.

Having said that though, there was more of this belt left after 30k miles than there was of the first after 5k miles.

Mo

[pat_pending]

I'd have thought you'd see any misalignment when it was running, if it looks ok then maybe the new tensioner, without washer, has fixed it.

Difficult to say what the original problem with the previous belt was though.

[Mo Murphy]

I'll put it down to experience Pat but I'll monitor this one carefully as we go.

All back together with a new water pump (might as well whilst it's apart) and running again now.

Hopefully the next time I delve into the timing case should be 2021.

Mo

[vulcan bomber]

I'll put it down to experience Pat but I'll monitor this one carefully as we go.

All back together with a new water pump (might as well whilst it's apart) and running again now.

Hopefully the next time I delve into the timing case should be 2021.

Mo

Or when this bracket is done....

[Mo Murphy]

?

[ballcock]

Reviving an old thread, I changed my timing belt about 5000 miles ago on my 200TDi as I had to strip the casing off to repair an oil leak. There was no apparent damage on the old belt and the tensioner  so only changed the belt. I replaced the Fip as mine was over revving. A fortnight ago the engine started knocking and getting worse I thought a big end had gone managed to nurse it home loosing power as it was going. It would not start following morning. I finally found time to take the cover off this evening to find the belt had cut about 5mm off the outer edge of the belt but leaving the toothed section, but part of the toothed section has been ripped from the belt at the crank so not driving the cam shaft. Am I to assume that the valves have likely hit the pistons and will need the head off and rebuilt?

[Ex Member]

The valves will have hit, but almost 100% of the time (on a 200TDI), all that happens is the pushrods are bent.  Replace belt and pushrods and it should be good.  You can pull the head if you want to check.  It is not much work.

[ballcock]

Thanks Red90 I'll have a look.

[ballcock]

Thanks Red90 I'll have a look. 

You were right, New rods & belt kit and she's back running. ran it without the cover for a few seconds to make sure it wasn't running out of line.