The towing out morals.

[vexedfoxy]

I am sure lots of you have been busy pulling people out of the snow these last few weeks, however I have a question of morals.#

Aside from the fact that for 355 days a year we are 4 x 4 (insert offensive word) now we are everyones mate!

But in this increasing 'sue you as quick as look at you society' (which I hate) where does one stand in this situation for example

I was taking my normal route to work up a single track lane going up a hill and on a double bend there was a car that had come down wrapped around a tree. two squaddies from the local army base who I pass most mornings had lost their ford focus. They flagged me down I stopped and saw that the car was undrivable and they where unhurt. 'Could I pull them out' well I could but with a front wheel missing there where going nowhere, a double bend on slipery conditions I failed to see the point, I stood a good chance of been hooked up and being hit by the next person to come along.

I explained and offered them a life to their base which they readily accepted.

Does anyone else have a view on this.

Having had plenty of problems at work with lorries stuck on what looked liked a tiny piece of ice towing a loaded 44 tonne bulker (with a tractor or two) is very harzardous procedure.

We had a fuel delivery the other day and he got stuck by our tank he refused a tow on H and S grounds and insisted on chipping out with a plastic shovel -good luck with that then.

One does want to help but one does need to consider your own vehicle and possible damage to you and it.

I have pulled a few friends out and given the odd lift, i picked up our receptionist the other day much to the anoyance of her merc driving low profiled tyred estate agent husband who always looks down his nose at us agricultural types, he look quite cross form behind the net curtains!!

[BogMonster]

I agree ^^

I have recovered crashed vehicles here in the snow over the years but it is different, usually nobody around so you can rule out one of the unknowns and even then you have to be careful. Elsewhere, too many idiots in BMWs that think that the speed limit is there to be driven at and if you crash because it is snowy then sue somebody because it must be their fault.

I think if I was in the litigation conscious US/Europe setting I would probably leave recovery to the folks who had insurance to cover it, unless it was somebody I knew in which case that would be different. With a complete stranger, I bet that "Thanks mate" would rapidly turn into "you F$%>wit look what you just did to my car" after something went wrong.

I would say you did the right thing, the car was undriveable anyway so leave it for whoever is going to collect it. If it was an icy road which had already caused one crash, then leaving it as far off the road as possible (which is probably where it was) is the best thing to do.

[western]

I would hope the guys concerned reported their incident to the police too.

[vexedfoxy]

Yes they had already rung the police and the car was in fact gone by lunchtime. They where grateful for a lift to work.

[Crofter]

My worry would be the insurance company blameing you for damage, If a car is in a ditch you don't know what damage is underneath the car, and the insurance will be only to glad to try and recover the cost from you, After all in their eyes you don't know how to recover a car and could have made the damage worse. I my opinion it's best left to the recovery Garage's unless you know and trust the person your towing.

Ronnie.

[calvin]

I have to agree, it is in the back of your mind, that if you go and pull somebody out of the snow, and the front of the car comes off or the exhaust falls off, then it quickly changes from 'you are a great mate, I am so grateful' to 'I am going to claim off your insurance'. I will only offer a lift, or if i have time to help dig them out, but unless I know them I wouldnt tow them out. In fact I do not even carry a tow rope or strop for that very reason. If I dont have one I cant use it.

also if my vehicle gets damaged in the process then I am sure that my insurance company would not agree with using the vehicle to tow and not pay out.

so I wont tow out when I am out and about, makes me sound like a right so and so but I just wont risk it.

[MECCANO]

Aside from the fact that for 355 days a year we are 4 x 4 (insert offensive word) now we are everyones mate!

Not where i work, they take it as an oppotunity to slate 4x4 drives for thinking they are indestructable... becuase if their 4wd audi can't do it

[SPendrey]

Not where i work, they take it as an oppotunity to slate 4x4 drives for thinking they are indestructable... becuase if their 4wd audi can't do it

I noticed this last week that a lot of 4x4's were off the road still, all BMW X5's! Can't say I'm too bothered, but their drivers obviously to have the 'indestructable' problem and learn the hard way.

[Top90]

With a complete stranger, I bet that "Thanks mate" would rapidly turn into "you F$%>wit look what you just did to my car" after something went wrong.

Or my concern, which has always been a claim going in to your insurance company after they have said thanks... for scratches to car, broken exhaust etc..

You think everything is fine and then get a rude letter from the insurance company asking why you didn't report it.

Six claims on my company insurance last year. Only three actually happened.

Three were damage that somebody decided a bus company would just pay for and not look at. It makes you very sceptical.

Some people just take the number plate of a passing HGV or PSV these days and put a claim in.

[Happyoldgit]

Sorry but unless there is an obviously life threatening situation, or there are close friends or family involved, then I'm afraid these days I just drive on by. There are just too many inexperienced, blasé, impatient, stroppy, under insured, ill equipped, arrogant, stupid, people prepared to use any opportunity to save or earn a few quid around nowadays that I tend to look after No1.

[errol209]

Sorry but unless there is an obviously life threatening situation, or there are close friends or family involved, then I'm afraid these days I just drive on by. There are just too many inexperienced, blasé, impatient, stroppy, under insured, ill equipped, arrogant, stupid, people prepared to use any opportunity to save or earn a few quid around nowadays that I tend to look after No1.

I agree, but I'll always stop and ask if everything is OK if it is safe to do so.

I have always worked on the principle that I wait to be asked for my assistance, and then make it clear that it is entirely at their risk and only physically help if such help is going to make the world a safer place. Perhaps we need a pre-printed card with our terms and conditions on and space for a signature?

[Night Train]

I have done a fair share of 'helping' but it is limited to shifting snow and pushing by hand.

Even when I move some snow I won't lend out my shovel as I'd rather do it myself in case the shovel breaks or there is a splinter in the handle. Also I know how and where to shift the snow to and it is quicker then watching someone else pick at it fashion model at a buffet.

I do carry enough equipment to cut trees and winch myself about but that is for my own vehicle and no one elses.

Back in the 80's I drove up the length of the M11 towing and winching vehicles out when I was on my way to Norwich one evening. People didn't claim against you then.

[vexedfoxy]

I am glad it is not just me being not keen on towing strangers.

[landroversforever]

Perhaps we need a pre-printed card with our terms and conditions on and space for a signature?

I was thinking about this the other day. Some one at college made the comment that as I am likely to have a LR soon, they would ring me if they needed a tow next time there is snow . So I said i'd get them to sign a disclaimer first, something simmilar to the off road course disclaimers. They thought I was joking!

Its sad that the world has come to this. I'm the sort of person that if i have the equipment I love to help others. But a fear of being sued would put me off towing someone. Unless I had something like the above.

[vexedfoxy]

I am really pleased it is not just me, I always have a chain and strop/shackles on board but I never admit that to strangers, it is a bit like jump starting apart from anything else it is a total pain in the backside having to take the seat out and then the metal lid thing and then listen to the 'that's a funny place to have a battery' often felt like replying 'funny place to leave new battery........in the shop'

[gazelle]

After recovering someone on a lane some time ago, I asked a similar question. See this thread

[lrfarmer]

i heard the other day that the south west poilce hired 20 4X4s to help them cope with the cold weather but the powers that be told them thay could not drive them as thay had not been trained to drive them safely.

so being hessatent about helping isn't as daft as it should be.

[calvin]

it does sound mean, especially with the current weather, but as I said I just dont carry any recovery type equipment. I will stop and ask if they are okay, or if they have help coming, I will give someone a lift to a place of safety or civilisation and will push or dig out if required.(actually my discovery got pranged as I help push a car during a snow storm, bent the tow hitch and I currently doent even have a hitch )

As for disclaimers, no matter who signs them they are not worth the paper they are written on, it will come down to you to prove you were either competent, not neglegent or didnt cause the damage as claimed. As someone said in that other thread, it can be a real hassle just having to defend yourself against such a claim, justified or otherwise, filling in forms, phone calls etc etc. Not worth even the slightest risk. It was explained to me why disclaimers are worthless in so much in the eyes of the law you cannot have someone sign a disclaimer to say if they are injured or their property damaged due to your actions you are not responsible, this is a licence for cowboys and bad practice and goes against the principle of duty of care.

The other problem I would have with any disclaimer is that it could be argued that you had agreed a contract, with all that goes with such a thing.

Like I said for people I know, it is not a problem, but for the general public I might happen across I would check to see if they are okay and/or take the people to safety or to civilisation, not their car. I know that 99.9% of them would be grateful and not do anything untowards but it is that hdden 0.1% who can make your life hell.

This has been a really interesting thread anyway.

:)

[western]

i heard the other day that the south west poilce hired 20 4X4s to help them cope with the cold weather

well that didn't happen in the deep west of Cornwall.

[vexedfoxy]

Our local Police have at least two late model td5 LWB, I used to often see them out following hunts sabs who where following the hunt who where following the hounds who where following the fox, I have never seen one off road or even vauguely dirty.

[NicTheOrange90]

I dont think its uncommon to have;

• 4x4 permit (on road)
• 4x4 permit (off-road/winter driving)
• 4x4 permit (towing)

This allows the maximum amount of people to drive the vehicle for most of the time (which as we all know is on road, no towing) without having to send everyone on expensive courses.

Back to the forum OP topic...

I think each of us forms our own opinion of the possible issues to help other motorists if we see they are broken down or need assistance. Rendering basic assitance until emergency services arrive which, IMHO, we all have a duty to do as drivers (which can be in the form of driving past and calling 999, stopping to help direct traffic, or giving first aid) See article 283, is quite different to attempting a recovery with our own vehicle.

Each time we see something that we judge to be other than the norm, we make a decision, an no one else can do that for us. Having a 4x4 (even if it is 'the best by far') and a rope does not qualify a recovery vehicle. Equally this is Britain (not yet a fully litigious society), and no matter where we come from, or our cultural background on the whole the majority of us are decent law abiding citizens who just want to help and in some cases a tug out of a ditch can make the difference.

Again IMHO if you do decide to stop and you are satisfied it is safe to do so etc (which is a whole different threa which has been covered many times before) why not consider asking a few choice questions.

• " Is anyone hurt ?"
• " Do you need any assistance ?"

If they ask you to help get them out of their predicament, and you decide to go ahead, then make it clear you are only helping them out at their request and that their vehicle may sustain further damage during the 'recovery' .

What happens next is down to your skill and judgement, and could result in a happy fellow motorist on their way, or it could be a 38 tonner* remodelling your rear end and generally spoiling your plan to be a hereo !

*this could be any other motorist/jerk changing their radio station at the very time they come around the corner and not just a very large moving object hurtling towards your Land Rover.

If you see the Fast Roads training the police have to go thru (which in some forces is any road with a speed limit of 40mph or more) which involves the distances at which cones\signs need to be placed back before the incident, and the type of vehicle which can be deployed, then perhaps you might think the standard Defender 'high intensity' indicators are a little to be desired.

[bathtub]

I am sure lots of you have been busy pulling people out of the snow these last few weeks, however I have a question of morals.#

Aside from the fact that for 355 days a year we are 4 x 4 (insert offensive word) now we are everyones mate!

But in this increasing 'sue you as quick as look at you society' (which I hate) where does one stand in this situation for example

I was taking my normal route to work up a single track lane going up a hill and on a double bend there was a car that had come down wrapped around a tree. two squaddies from the local army base who I pass most mornings had lost their ford focus. They flagged me down I stopped and saw that the car was undrivable and they where unhurt. 'Could I pull them out' well I could but with a front wheel missing there where going nowhere, a double bend on slipery conditions I failed to see the point, I stood a good chance of been hooked up and being hit by the next person to come along.

I explained and offered them a life to their base which they readily accepted.

Does anyone else have a view on this.

Having had plenty of problems at work with lorries stuck on what looked liked a tiny piece of ice towing a loaded 44 tonne bulker (with a tractor or two) is very harzardous procedure.

We had a fuel delivery the other day and he got stuck by our tank he refused a tow on H and S grounds and insisted on chipping out with a plastic shovel -good luck with that then.

One does want to help but one does need to consider your own vehicle and possible damage to you and it.

I have pulled a few friends out and given the odd lift, i picked up our receptionist the other day much to the anoyance of her merc driving low profiled tyred estate agent husband who always looks down his nose at us agricultural types, he look quite cross form behind the net curtains!!

What are your views on !!

Stole the wifes Hummer to go to work {she was well happy i left her the Mitsubishi lol}.

Outside our site a neighbour that is always moaning about noise & deliveries etc asked me to tow his Toyota Hybrid out with my Hummer lol

I explained if i did then surley the extra fuel i would use to pull him out woul create more C02 thus next year the weather would be worse !!

So really i would be doing him a favour if i left him surely??

Got a funny look from him but still snatched him out with a webbing strap !!!! sounded good from my cab lol

[white90]

Any pictures Pete

[Bigwood]

Our local Police have at least two late model td5 LWB, I used to often see them out following hunts sabs who where following the hunt who where following the hounds who where following the fox, I have never seen one off road or even vauguely dirty.

I will start this reply by saying I aprove of the work the 4X4 response teams have done to help in the past. Unfortunatly I have heard bad things recently from one of the big recovery firms that recover a lot of our firms buses and coaches. On several ocasions during the bad spell of recent snow and ice they witnesed people with 4x4 response stickers on there vehicles ofering to tow stuck vehicles out in exchange for cash. One offer to recover a mini bus was £50 for each 4x4. This is not the recovery firm being beaten to a job, this was witnesed by a fitter from another workshop. And he said this hapened on more than one ocasion. During my time at the roadside, 22 years, I did pull people out members or not to make the scene safe. Not once did any one person complain or claim from our firm becase of my help. Any one who said dont touch or you could make things worse I left well alone. I never took any form of tip or bribe, we were taxed on our tips Do we need any more bad press for 4X4,s. Do you help and get thanked or leave peole and get 4x4,s a bad name . I know what I would do, use comon sense comes to mind.

[Ruuman]

sad state of affairs isn't it where we all question what 15-20 years ago would have been a "yeah no problem"

a few months ago I was waiting for a friend in a bus stop, a lady pulled in with a flat, she had driven on it for miles and all that was left was a mess of cords and a trashed rim. She didn't know what to do and had no AA.

I popped on the space saver and gave the car a quick glance over incase she'd caused more damage. Then told her be careful because of the lower speed rating etc, she thanked me saying she didn't know what she would have done and went on her way.

Now the result was I'd saved her god knows how much waiting around, driving an unsafe vehicle, etc, etc. All with 5 mins of common courtesy and no inconvenience to myself. Brilliant.

Just makes me a bit sick that after she left the only thing I could think of was, what if she has an accident on the way home or the wheel falls off as I hadn't spotted a problem.

fact is I'll still help people, just apply common sense and remember most people are still pretty decent. As with anything it's the minority spoiling things for the majority.