Forby "boost ring" anyone?

[lol]

Has anybody had any experience yet?

Seems relatively expensive for what it is but if it provides decent real world gains I'm all for it?

http://fourby.co.uk/Dynamic-Timing-AdvanceSpacer-200tdi-300TDi

[BogMonster]

Not sure if it achieves anything that you can't achieve with some twiddling of the pump settings, but maybe it does so with less trial and error. From the shape it sits under the diaphragm cap, and just affects where the pin is sitting at particular boost settings. I guess the usual health warnings apply about tweaking an older engine with a lot of miles on it i.e. if it goes bang, don't be too surprised.

[landroversforever]

Get the original one from @NRS91 Nick at Steggs Supplies. He was the first person to do them over here and can explain better than I can what it does! 

 

[RedLineMike]

1 hour ago, BogMonster said:

Not sure if it achieves anything that you can't achieve with some twiddling of the pump settings, but maybe it does so with less trial and error. From the shape it sits under the diaphragm cap, and just affects where the pin is sitting at particular boost settings. I guess the usual health warnings apply about tweaking an older engine with a lot of miles on it i.e. if it goes bang, don't be too surprised.

it actually goes on the side of the pump IIRC rather than under the diaphragm cap

 

[NRS91]

Thanks for the tag Ross,
The Original Dynamic Timing Advance Spacer kit for Land Rovers available from Steg's Supplies works by allowing the dynamic timing advance piston in the bottom of the injection pump to use all of its available travel giving you more injection timing advance at mid to high engine rpm.
In layman's terms this means the engine will rev more freely, responding more like a car, and it will allow you to burn more diesel without raising your EGTs and smoking out the street.
This gives you more clean and cool power.
If you want the full details and the independent back to back dyno testing which shows the improvement then you can find them here:
www.stegs4x4.co.uk/product/dynamic-timing-advance-spacer-kit

[Ex Member]

1 hour ago, NRS91 said:

Thanks for the tag Ross,
The Original Dynamic Timing Advance Spacer kit for Land Rovers available from Steg's Supplies works by allowing the dynamic timing advance piston in the bottom of the injection pump to use all of its available travel giving you more injection timing advance at mid to high engine rpm.
In layman's terms this means the engine will rev more freely, responding more like a car, and it will allow you to burn more diesel without raising your EGTs and smoking out the street.
This gives you more clean and cool power.
If you want the full details and the independent back to back dyno testing which shows the improvement then you can find them here:
www.stegs4x4.co.uk/product/dynamic-timing-advance-spacer-kit

The problem is that they did not test the "boost ring".  They took a crappy old truck that was in horrible condition and put in a boost pin and boost ring.  It smoked like hell and was obviously running very unsafe levels of fueling.  Everyone knows what happens when you crank up the fueling.  What is needed is someone with a properly setup engine to test the boost ring.  I have not seen one person run one that has provided real feedback.  

Why is it so hard for a vendor to do a proper test with before and after dynos?

Edited September 4, 2018 by Red90

[NRS91]

4 minutes ago, Red90 said:

The problem is that they did not test the "boost ring".  They took a crappy old truck that was in horrible condition and put in a boost pin and boost ring.  It smoked like hell and was obviously running very unsafe levels of fueling.  Everyone knows what happens when you crank up the fueling.  What is needed is someone with a properly setup engine to test the boost ring.  I have not seen one person run one that has provided real feedback.  

Why is it so hard for a vendor to do a proper test with before and after dynos?

@Red90 it was a customer doing his own testing on his own truck with his own money the only input I had was to testing method, i.e. doing three runs before and after and averaging the results and other little things to try and make it as fairer comparison as possible.
The customer reduced the star wheel pre-load which is where the smoke comes from and the engine was quite worn to start with so I agree its not the perfect test but it was a totally independent test with repeatable results which couldn't be influenced by the retailer (me) because I was 200 miles away and wouldn't be influenced by the dyno operator as they had zero vested interest in the product. A zero bias test.

While I understand people want to see the product tested on its own the point of that before and after dyno test was to show the benefit of the tuning package as the boost pin and dynamic timing advance spacer kit compliment each other, meaning the whole is greater than the sum of the parts if you understand what I mean.

The boost pin allows less off boost fuelling and more on boost fuelling than the standard pin meaning you can dial in the fuelling where you need it without excessive smoke while the dynamic timing advance spacer kit means you can burn more fuel cleanly and makes the engine more responsive. They compliment each other nicely.

[Ex Member]

I understand exactly what was done and I also understand exactly how each part works.

The test showed nothing at all about whether or not the boost ring did anything.  It showed that turning up the fueling increases power, which everyone already knew.

I understand the point of the pin over a stock pin.

Show me one test anywhere of the boost ring.  I would buy one if someone could show that the timing change does something useful.  Everything so far is just words with nothing to back it up.

It is not exactly complicated.  Get a vehicle with a known good engine.  Set the pump up per factory specs.  Do a dyno.  Install the boost ring.  Do a dyno.  Remove ring.  Install pin and setup fueling to a safe level based on EGT.  Do a dyno.  Add boost ring.  Do a dyno.  The Land Rover tuning community is the least scientific tuning community in the world.  Why anyone would ever buy a tuning part without testing available is beyond me.

[roamingyak]

3 hours ago, Red90 said:

Why is it so hard for a vendor to do a proper test with before and after dynos?

Does this help at all?

 

[NRS91]

38 minutes ago, Red90 said:

I understand exactly what was done and I also understand exactly how each part works.

The test showed nothing at all about whether or not the boost ring did anything.  It showed that turning up the fueling increases power, which everyone already knew.

I understand the point of the pin over a stock pin.

Show me one test anywhere of the boost ring.  I would buy one if someone could show that the timing change does something useful.  Everything so far is just words with nothing to back it up.

It is not exactly complicated.  Get a vehicle with a known good engine.  Set the pump up per factory specs.  Do a dyno.  Install the boost ring.  Do a dyno.  Remove ring.  Install pin and setup fueling to a safe level based on EGT.  Do a dyno.  Add boost ring.  Do a dyno.  The Land Rover tuning community is the least scientific tuning community in the world.  Why anyone would ever buy a tuning part without testing available is beyond me.

The test showed exactly what the Boost Pin and Timing Spacer did though... it was literally just putting the products into a used disco and seeing what they did...
Unfortunately my own testing has been somewhat scuppered by a small collision, but once that is repaired I will be back into further developments rather than borrowing vehicles 😂😂

As for the what the spacer does, here is a picture that shows how much extra the timing advance mechanism can move with the spacer it compared to standard
 

[honitonhobbit]

I'm all for it. It's upped the value of second hand engines by at least 200quid and I've got second hand engines for sale

[Ex Member]

43 minutes ago, NRS91 said:

The test showed exactly what the Boost Pin and Timing Spacer did though... it was literally just putting the products into a used disco and seeing what they did...
Unfortunately my own testing has been somewhat scuppered by a small collision, but once that is repaired I will be back into further developments rather than borrowing vehicles 😂😂

As for the what the spacer does, here is a picture that shows how much extra the timing advance mechanism can move with the spacer it compared to standard

Good lord.  Let me explain one more time. 

I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PARTS DO.  I understand the design and function of the VE pump in complete detail.

The test changed two things at once, so shows nothing about the ring. Unless you test and report each item separately, nothing has been learned.  When asking about THE RING, there needs to be a test with and without the ring without anything else changed.  It is beyond my comprehension how it is so complicated to understand this.

Any claims made on the performance changes are completely meaningless unless testing has been performed that is backed up by data.  Heck, how about finding one person that has installed one to say something?  

[NRS91]

1 hour ago, Red90 said:

Good lord.  Let me explain one more time. 

I UNDERSTAND WHAT THE PARTS DO.  I understand the design and function of the VE pump in complete detail.

The test changed two things at once, so shows nothing about the ring. Unless you test and report each item separately, nothing has been learned.  When asking about THE RING, there needs to be a test with and without the ring without anything else changed.  It is beyond my comprehension how it is so complicated to understand this.

Any claims made on the performance changes are completely meaningless unless testing has been performed that is backed up by data.  Heck, how about finding one person that has installed one to say something?  

You said you understood what they are supposed to do, I was showing you how it works on the inside showing it does actually add more timing advance via extra piston travel and we know extra timing advance helps in the mid to high RPM range.

As for testing on its own I agree with what you are saying and more testing will be done its just the logistics of finding a standard TDi and then getting it onto a calibrated 4wd dyno that are willing to run land rovers... tricky in the UK as most TDis have been played with and most dynos are in low buildings or owned by people who do high end tuning for themselves so arent willing to run a land rover on the rollers... but it will be done. Probably in the order of Standard, Boost Pin, Timing Spacer, Boost Pin & Timing Spacer then finally Boost Pin with Timing Spacer and tuning. But that would probably be 15+ dyno runs.

What I was trying to say originally is that both the boost pin and timing spacer work together as a package so the independent test done by my customer is still valid as a before and after test on the complete package gaining 30hp. For the individual product dyno testing I reckon it the boost pin will get a good percentage of the 30hp increase as its adding fuelling and the timing spacer would only gain a small percentage increase because the increased timing isnt doing much without the extra fuelling but when they work together you get the 30hp... tuning is all about supporting mods tbh and the headline numbers are only half the story.

As for genuine customer testimonials here is a start, I am sure more people will chip in as this thread "trends": www.facebook.com/StegsSupplies/reviews

[BogMonster]

21 hours ago, RedLineMike said:

it actually goes on the side of the pump IIRC rather than under the diaphragm cap

 

Ah ok, misunderstood how it works then. I'll shut up and put my moderator hat on to watch the rest of the argument

[Ex Member]

18 hours ago, NRS91 said:

You said you understood what they are supposed to do, I was showing you how it works on the inside showing it does actually add more timing advance via extra piston travel and we know extra timing advance helps in the mid to high RPM range.

Yes, as I explained, I know precisely how the pump works internally and what the boost ring is doing.  There is no evidence, though, that advancing the timing will increase the power, without testing.  There is an optimum timing curve that produces the maximum power.  Anything outside of the that reduces power.  Without careful testing on a dyno, there is nothing to say that more advance beyond the factory curve is helpful.

[Bowie69]

I think the argument is that once in synergy with more fuel, that it allows it to rev better -so... he is kind of already agreeing with you.

 

[NRS91]

8 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I think the argument is that once in synergy with more fuel, that it allows it to rev better -so... he is kind of already agreeing with you.

 

Yes exactly, small gains on standard fuelling, larger gains with more fuelling as the extra advance burns the fuel rather than making a smoke show  

[cackshifter]

So, I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but why is the Disco in the vid so smokey?

[NRS91]

1 hour ago, cackshifter said:

So, I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but why is the Disco in the vid so smokey?

The customer likes to "roll coal" and the customer is always right.
He had the star wheel turned clockwise down so it was more smokey to suit his taste, we normally talk people through setting up for clean power though

[lol]

Many thanks for all the replies,didn't mean to cause an argument but does give a fair amount of information..I guess it's going to be a case of fitting and seeing what happens..@NRS91 would yours come with any fuel pump tuning instructions?

 

[NRS91]

Just now, lol said:

Many thanks for all the replies,didn't mean to cause an argument but does give a fair amount of information..I guess it's going to be a case of fitting and seeing what happens..@NRS91 would yours come with any fuel pump tuning instructions?

 

No argument here, just a discussion :)

I haven't written a How To for tuning on my website yet but I talk all my customers through install and tuning on a 1 to 1 basis and if they aren't feeling confident I do have a list of dealers who do installation and tuning too.

Feel free to drop me a message via Facebook, website or the forum.

[Chicken Drumstick]

@NRS91 quite interested in purchasing one of these from you. Have know about them for a while, but was completing a build before more mods. 

My 200Tdi runs great as is. Originally tuned by Allisport with a large FMIC and straight thru exhaust. Stock turbo though. And the injector pump pin is stock  but it’s had all the bits fiddled with on the pump  

It’s been tweaked at the pump a little further so can smoke a bit under load. But it picks up and revs great. In fact I have no complaints with how it goes. It will out drag a TD5 Defender that went on the dyno a couple of days later. The Td5 was chipped and had bigger intercooler and was making 152hp. 

If I understand you correct. This spacer ring should suit my setup well and help reduce EGT’s and probably make it run better?

[NRS91]

44 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

@NRS91 quite interested in purchasing one of these from you. Have know about them for a while, but was completing a build before more mods. 

My 200Tdi runs great as is. Originally tuned by Allisport with a large FMIC and straight thru exhaust. Stock turbo though. And the injector pump pin is stock  but it’s had all the bits fiddled with on the pump  

It’s been tweaked at the pump a little further so can smoke a bit under load. But it picks up and revs great. In fact I have no complaints with how it goes. It will out drag a TD5 Defender that went on the dyno a couple of days later. The Td5 was chipped and had bigger intercooler and was making 152hp. 

If I understand you correct. This spacer ring should suit my setup well and help reduce EGT’s and probably make it run better?

@Chicken Drumstick you are spot on the money, the extra timing advance typically reduces EGTs and clears up smoke by allowing the diesel enough time to burn completely. It normally makes the engine more responsive too and because you keep your standard static base timing you dont lose any low end grunt like you would by advancing the pumps static base timing.