Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Chicken Drumstick]

I have a p38, well I’ve got two at the moment for some reason… 😛 so quite familiar with the foibles of EAS. Although I admit I have converted one to coils. My Uncle also has a D2 with EAS bought new back when they first came out, Y reg I think. So I do have some mileage and experience with air suspension. 
 

That said, for the more modern setups such as the D3 and L322 onwards you don’t seem to hear or see much about EAS failures on any of the forums. P38’s it can be a daily occurrence and indeed my EAS example has suspension issues right now! 😒 I’m therefore under the impression that the newer setups are less error prone and problematic. To the point that I wouldn’t even consider EAS to be a risk. 
 

Two close friends have L322’s, both on their 2nd. My Uncle and another mate have L405’s and I’ve know lots of people with or had D3’s and D4’s. I don’t personally know of any of them having EAS issues. Other minor problems yes, but nothing suspension related apart from bushes. I also have not seen or read of any EAS failures with the new Defender on any of the forums. 

[Waldorf]

If you listen to Land Rover enthousiasts you would think that it has been going downhill ever since the Series 1. I have met guys who insisted leaf springs were far superior to coils, or that any engine after the 200 tdi was useless and unreliable. In the past 20 years I have driven a series, many classic Defenders, a D4 and a brand new Defender, and all of them have been reliable, on leaf springs, coils and air. The only Land Rover to ever leave me stranded was a 2008 Defender, when the intermediate shaft let go. I am convinced that any Land Rover can be reliable, but they need regular servicing. 

Currently I drive a MY21 Defender 110 D250, and it has been faultless. It is hands down the best car I have ever had, though it is not as pretty as the D4 I had before. 

[Lightning]

l think the buyer demographic for the new Defender is completely different.

The vehicle is fully competent both on and off road, and is great for Overlanding.

lt works best on the e steel wheels, and here's my point.

There's almost no interest in the steel wheels. Owners remove them (if the vehicle comes with them from the factory) and fit larger diameter alloys with low profile tyres.

The steel wheels/tyres are then dumped on Ebay at around £500 for a set. (Type "Defender L663 steel wheels" as an Ebay search) Great for the few of us who want them. The standard fit Michelin tyres are useless off road, l changed mine for Goodyear Wranglers.

But 95% of owners never venture off road. The vehicle's abilities are wasted on them.

Edited July 1 by Lightning

[Chicken Drumstick]

56 minutes ago, Lightning said:

But 95% of owners never venture off road. The vehicle's abilities are wasted on them.

In the U.K. I’d certainly agree. In fact for the U.K. you could probably take that to 98-99% even more so if you define off road as more than a grass field or dirt access track. 
 

I’d say the same is or was probably true for the D3/4 and it is really only been the past few years where prices have dropped low enough for potential Pay & Play users to consider wrecking one at such activities. 
 

I’m less convinced for the rest of the world markets and specifically certain parts of the USA and Australia. Off roading and overlanding is far more acceptable in those countries than here in the U.K. and far more accessible. Obviously a huge percentage will be on road only motors, simply due to the fact that no matter how much of an enthusiast you are, these are still road vehicles and there are other dedicated off road toys like side by sides and even tracked tanks. But I’d be willing to wager that a large number of new/newish 4x4’s and Land Rovers do get used off road in these markets. 
 

I know some of the Land Rover dealers in some parts even conduct and run off roading days such as parts of Moab or other interesting trails. 
 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Probably should have posted this a while ago. Couple of months back my Uncle had this 90 on demo from the local dealer. 
 

The green looks too much at first, but in person it really grew on me, even the green rims and compared to the other colours/non-colours LR offer it is refreshingly not dull looking and quite striking.  
 

The D300 motor seemed lovely too. Loads of grunt and get up and go and was showing better mpg than the D240 First Edition I had on demo a few years back. 
 

Really liked the heads up display. Which is something I’d not used before, but certainly worth the money.

On a downside this is the 3rd new Defender I’ve driven and this one had only 6000 miles on the clock. But all 3 have had trim rattles from somewhere!

I didn’t drive it off road but my Uncle did. Only round our little test/play section at the back of the farm. My Uncle is more old school and not one to play with the 827 settings that the Terrain Response offers, so he left it in the default mode with low range and raised suspension. It got stuck on a simple cross axle and wouldn’t spin the wheels up even at full throttle due to the stability control killing the throttle. So it just sat there not letting the wheels rotate. 
 

I was in the passenger seat, so I flicked the Terrain Response into a different mode and it then drove out fairly easily but did require a lot of wheel spin. 
 

But it goes to show that you really do need to know how to use the system else it can be stopped easily. A Puma Defender would have driven straight through without any extra button pushing, all you’d need would be low range. 
 

Not knocking the new model. It is extremely capable. But Terrain Response sure adds a layer of complexity and makes it much more easy to get the vehicles stuck than old school ones. Which in my opinion does the complete opposite thing LR wanted to do with the system originally. A novice would be clueless on what you’d need to do. 
 

I believe brand new it was £81k although the dealer would take £63k for it now. A lot of money when all said and done. And well beyond my bank balance sadly. 
 

I do like how easy it was to get in/out of. And the side steps were very usable and something I’d certainly option. Again reinforcing I’d also really want the EAS as it just made everything easier overall. 
 

One thing I don’t like on the 90 is how slow the passenger seat moves forwards/backwards to let someone in or out. It also isn’t a one touch button you have to keep it pressed down and it then moves at the same speed as a glacier. You almost expect it to play you some elevator music while you wait. 
 

On another interesting point. Parked up next to my p38 the 90 when you include the rear wheel was almost the same length overall (and wider) than the Range Rover. Considering the massive leg room for the rear passengers of the p38 and the cavernous boot. It makes you wonder how the 90 has such a small boot area. Must only be 1/3rd or less than that of the p38. At least in terms of depth. 
 

I do certainly like the new Defender. And as I’ve said before, it is a wonderful Discovery 6. 
 

Price aside I can see one replacing my p38 at some point. Although the 110 does feel a lot bigger than the RR and the 90 obviously vastly less practical with 2 doors less and a comparatively tiny boot. 
 

If I had £60k+ to spend on a 4x4 however I’d be putting a Wrangler or used Ineos ahead of the new Defender. And maybe even something like the Ranger Raptor or an imported Ford Bronco or Chevy ZR2 Bison. All offer more rugged native off road abilities and all likely to drive more like a 4x4, which is a major part of the appeal for me. 
 

If I didn’t actually need the off road ability or didn’t plan to off road. Then something like an SVR F-Pace or maybe even a Velar would seem to make more sense as an on road vehicle. Although this might depend on if you need to tow 3.5T or not. But ultimately there are better and faster road biased vehicles I’d be tempted to look at should I not really care about the off road abilities. 
 

In conclusion while the new Defender may be a bit of a jack of all trades. I find it ends up in that middle ground of lacking focus and not excelling enough at any of them. That said, being in the U.K. some of the American offerings are not easy or viable to buy over here. And I do look forward to when the new Defender is sub £10k. So despite its short comings as a new vehicle I’m not saying owning one will never happen. After all I am a life long Land Rover fanatic. 

[Lightning]

l almost got my new Defender stuck in a field with only superficial mud.

I found that there were two issues with it.

Firstly when in "default" mode it seems to be biased towards RWD. l changed to "mud & ruts" and the vehicle regained traction, although it slid around a lot.

Secondly the standard fit tyres were rubbish in this situation, barely any grip at all.

I changed the tyres for Goodyear Wranglers and it's transformed. l was told that these tyres have more road noise but l can't tell any difference.

I've yet to try any serious off road but if l were going to Africa l would just take our 2020 Jimny....it's unstoppable off road. The new Defender is a big, heavy vehicle and feels a bit unwieldy off road compared to my old Defender or our Jimny. Although (with the new tyres) it's certainly competent.

Mine is the basic specification with coil springs and fairly simple terrain response system and so fancy locking differentials.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3 by Lightning

[deep]

That thing about less interior room than expected has had me scratching my head for years.  The sides are really thick, as if the body was the chassis (if that makes sense) and the interior is very focussed on seating, not space.  

I'm surprised the "90" is as big as a P38.  P38s are big cars!  Bigger than the original Range Rovers.  I travelled round Australia in a 1982 Range Rover.  It didn't just carry heaps of my gear but also had room for five jerry cans of fuel and a big sleeping platform (with an extension between the seats for my head), so really quite a big car.  I suppose a good bit of the space in newer cars is used up with protection from side/rear collisions but still, so inefficient!

[ThreePointFive]

39 minutes ago, deep said:

That thing about less interior room than expected has had me scratching my head for years.  The sides are really thick, as if the body was the chassis (if that makes sense) and the interior is very focussed on seating, not space.  

I'm surprised the "90" is as big as a P38.  P38s are big cars!  Bigger than the original Range Rovers.  I travelled round Australia in a 1982 Range Rover.  It didn't just carry heaps of my gear but also had room for five jerry cans of fuel and a big sleeping platform (with an extension between the seats for my head), so really quite a big car.  I suppose a good bit of the space in newer cars is used up with protection from side/rear collisions but still, so inefficient!

This is very true and my major annoyance with all modern cars but SUVs especially. They seem the least efficient in space utilisation, which only plays into the idea they are wasteful and useless. 

Looking at a new Ranger going down the road, they make an Transporter look small yet they have limited additional capacity over the previous models. 

Safety is a major cause and we certainly should not return to the bad old days of 1" A pillars, but the current way of building cars is not going in the right direction. 

[Lightning]

The thing l've noticed about my new Defender is how wide it is. it's nearly as wide as our caravan.  And the caravan is a Basecamp 2 which is in itself quite wide.

While it makes for a fabulous towing vehicle, it is quite a tight fit down some of the farm tracks l have to drive down.

lnterestingly round here most of the farmers have a new Defender. But not as a farm vehicle. Doubtless bought through the business but for farm use it seems to be the ubiquitous double cab and the occasional old Defender.

Haven't seen any Grenadiers on farms, not yet anyway.

l am still waiting for a farmer to sell me their old Defender for a song, but despite the fact that many are retired in fields (there's a lovely looking Series 2 in a field, a TD5 languishing in a barn, and a solid looking early 90 in a hedge near here) they're not for sale.

[Ed Poore]

10 hours ago, Lightning said:

l almost got my new Defender stuck in a field with only superficial mud.

I found that there were two issues with it.

Firstly when in "default" mode it seems to be biased towards RWD. l changed to "mud & ruts" and the vehicle regained traction, although it slid around a lot.

If it's like the L322 traction control then the DSC (dynamic stability control) overrides the terrain response modes if left turned on as DSC is viewed as a safety system to limit wheel spin on the road etc. I got incredibly frustrated with the first L322 I had as I knew if I could have spun the wheels (something a 250hp/500+Nm engine should have no trouble with) I'd make progress. In my frustration I stabbed various buttons and turned off the DSC and shot forwards.

I found afterwards that it is recommended in the manual to turn it off when activating one of the special programs. Due to the safety aspect of it (at least in the L322 era variants) it couldn't be turned off automatically by the computer. What happens was the terrain response wanted a bit more power and would have allowed wheel slip but the DSC was detecting wheel spin and killing engine power. Turn it off and the Terrain Response was allowed to do what it wanted.

[Escape]

11 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

Safety is a major cause and we certainly should not return to the bad old days of 1" A pillars, but the current way of building cars is not going in the right direction. 

I'm not convinced that is actually an improvement to safety. In an older vehicle, with thin pillars, you typically have a good view all around, so a much better chance of avoiding a situation where you'd need the car to protect you. And much easier for parking, even without sensors or cameras.

[landroversforever]

33 minutes ago, Escape said:

I'm not convinced that is actually an improvement to safety. In an older vehicle, with thin pillars, you typically have a good view all around, so a much better chance of avoiding a situation where you'd need the car to protect you. And much easier for parking, even without sensors or cameras.

Everything is someone/thing else's problem these days - just look at all the stuff like lane assist etc that wouldn't be needed if people bothered to drive rather than just be a steering wheel attendant. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

If it's like the L322 traction control then the DSC (dynamic stability control) overrides the terrain response modes if left turned on as DSC is viewed as a safety system to limit wheel spin on the road etc. I got incredibly frustrated with the first L322 I had as I knew if I could have spun the wheels (something a 250hp/500+Nm engine should have no trouble with) I'd make progress. In my frustration I stabbed various buttons and turned off the DSC and shot forwards.

I found afterwards that it is recommended in the manual to turn it off when activating one of the special programs. Due to the safety aspect of it (at least in the L322 era variants) it couldn't be turned off automatically by the computer. What happens was the terrain response wanted a bit more power and would have allowed wheel slip but the DSC was detecting wheel spin and killing engine power. Turn it off and the Terrain Response was allowed to do what it wanted.

The DSC is exactly the issue. Although some of the Terrain Response programs also limit wheel spin too, even with DSC off. 
 

The thing I don’t get is. Why when you select Low Range it doesn’t automatically turn DSC off. DSC offers absolutely nothing in low range as you have a very limited top speed and people won’t and shouldn’t be using Low Range for normal road driving. 
 

I can think of no scenarios where DSC would be useful when in Low Range. 
 

My 4th Gen Jimny (2020) automatically turns DSC off when you shift to low range. 

[landroversforever]

Wonder if DSC is linked to stuff like hill descent control these days? 

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Why when you select Low Range it doesn’t automatically turn DSC off.

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Due to the safety aspect of it (at least in the L322 era variants) it couldn't be turned off automatically by the computer

Simply put legislation and rules I think. I'm not sure whether there's a specific piece of legislation in place about it but the rules are (for manufacturers) that safety systems have to default on and be manually overridden (usually with each start of the ignition at a minimum). I've been reasonably heavily involved with automotive electronics in the past and the regulations and testing they go through is insane compared to other stuff. Our military kit didn't get half the environmental testing that automotive stuff did. The only thing that tended to get more testing done on it was space based stuff but that was because you really really didn't want to make a mistake. The rule of thumb when I was working on that stuff was a minimum of a £1m/kg (1 million pounds per kilo) to send stuff into space.

Things are changing rapidly in the automotive world with the advent of EVs and everything else pushing things that legislation hasn't kept up (look at LED bulbs which have only recently been covered by updated MOT rules) but a lot of the "old" manufacturers still have equipment that's steeped in history and testing from back when electronics weren't a big thing in the automotive world.

[FridgeFreezer]

Well I recognise where this shot was taken:

 

From https://www.thedrive.com/news/2025-land-rover-defender-octa-britains-626-hp-answer-to-the-word-raptor

[Ed Poore]

3 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Well I recognise where this shot was taken:

 

From https://www.thedrive.com/news/2025-land-rover-defender-octa-britains-626-hp-answer-to-the-word-raptor

Having seen how a mates Raptor (British version which doesn't have the big engine but has the suspension) handles the speed bumps in Pendine it's bloody impressive and a big ask for the Defender to handle the same way. Hitting those rather aggressive bumps at 30mph and the body stayed perfectly flat as if it had been driving on the M4. Conversely my old 110 almost caught air on all four corners.

[Chicken Drumstick]

41 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Simply put legislation and rules I think. I'm not sure whether there's a specific piece of legislation in place about it but the rules are (for manufacturers) that safety systems have to default on and be manually overridden (usually with each start of the ignition at a minimum).

The fact that in the current Jimny it does automatically turn off when you select low range would suggest it can’t be legislation based. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

14 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Well I recognise where this shot was taken:

 

From https://www.thedrive.com/news/2025-land-rover-defender-octa-britains-626-hp-answer-to-the-word-raptor

Sadly one of the most pointless vehicles ever conceived IMO. The off road version starting at £150,000

Can’t realistically see any owners off roading this one. What an utter waste of time and resources 🙁

[Lightning]

Yes but there's a market for this kind of vehicle, there will be a waiting list before long.

l bet it doesn't cost much more to build than the standard model, and it sells for twice the price. So a nice money earner for LR.

Edited July 4 by Lightning

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Sadly one of the most pointless vehicles ever conceived IMO. The off road version starting at £150,000

Can’t realistically see any owners off roading this one. What an utter waste of time and resources 🙁

You could say that about anything new though - most people don't buy and thrash a new vehicle but they all get cheap eventually - you see D3's and P38's off-road and those were mega money luxury barges when they were new too.

And although we don't have the space for it here, the US and other sandy countries with rich folks in seem very willing to do a bit of dune-bashing in 100k+ motors as a pastime so it may well be perfectly practical for that.

[ThreePointFive]

The same argument applies to supercars and using it/not using it on track days.

[Bowie69]

11 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

The same argument applies to supercars and using it/not using it on track days.

And supercharged V8 Jags used for pooling to the shops. 

Or indeed using LGT for getting groceries in, like I did this evening. 

[deep]

The Octa makes perfect sense to me.  If you have exchanged the former working concept of the Defender for a big, plush car that can also cover the country well off road, why not make an option that goes faster on road but also improves some off road features?  The off-road "scene" here in New Zealand is now dominated by lead-foots who add more power and bigger (and bigger and bigger) tyres and just launch at everything (ruining virtually every 4WD track in the country as a result).  If a factory makes something along those lines, it's probably going to be less hazardous, at least in theory.

Slightly tongue in cheek, I know, but it is the bragging rights that make people buy this stuff, not what they actually do with it.  That's probably been true since they first decided to put a V8 in the first Range Rover!

I do like the green interior but no, I won't be buying one.

[FridgeFreezer]

11 hours ago, deep said:

but it is the bragging rights that make people buy this stuff, not what they actually do with it.  That's probably been true since they first decided to put a V8 in the first Range Rover

I would argue that the V8 in the classic Range Rover was done for the same reason America was using V8s in their land yachts - they just waft effortlessly and quietly along.