Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[FridgeFreezer]

Sliding callipers are simple (fewer pistons/seals/channels) and mean the outside part is only as thick as a brake pad and enough material to support it, although they probably do cost less I don't think that means they're worse, just a more efficient design.

The Freelander used them and although pins can bind up with gunk, the pads often came with new pins included - TBH I've had at least as much ar5e over the years with corroded or stuck pistons as with sliding calliper pins so I don't think there's much in it there.

[Bowie69]

plus...... with sliding calipers it means you can get bigger brakes without pushing the wheel outboard any more.

I have nearly 300K on my Audi with sliding calipers, but twin pot, I have never had to replace the pins, just cleaned them up maybe twice in the 24 years I have had it, and that was because I was too lazy/tight to replace the little rubber gaiter on them. 

Also, why does my browser think 'caliper' is not a word?

[Ed Poore]

@FridgeFreezer it's probably pot luck but I'd say I've had the opposite to you over the years. Only ever had one piston stick on a fixed caliper but almost always had to battle with sliding calipers when working on the brakes.

Not saying ones better than the other, my personal preference is fixed ones based purely on the fact I've had less issues with them.

[landroversforever]

54 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

@FridgeFreezer it's probably pot luck but I'd say I've had the opposite to you over the years. Only ever had one piston stick on a fixed caliper but almost always had to battle with sliding calipers when working on the brakes.

Not saying ones better than the other, my personal preference is fixed ones based purely on the fact I've had less issues with them.

I’d have to echo that…. Yes I’ve worked on the odd sticky piston etc on fixed, but by far had more issues with sliding calipers. 
 

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

plus...... with sliding calipers it means you can get bigger brakes without pushing the wheel outboard any more.

But how often the more powerful versions IE bigger brakes mean they go over to fixed. 

[Bowie69]

Because they like having brembo stickers on them... 

[Retroanaconda]

When I changed the discs and pads on mine a year or two back it was a pretty easy process, certainly much simpler than on the old 90 due to the front mounted discs as above. 

[Escape]

9 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Because they like having brembo stickers on them... 

And because if more clamping force is required (or desired), at a certain point a fixed caliper with pistons on both sides is more compact that a sliding caliper with the same total piston surface area.

I'm not ditching the sliding ones, they're fine on the P38 as long as you keep the pins clean and greased. But I do prefer fixed, it just feels 'nicer' to have one or more pistons on both sides of the disc. I'm keen on symmetry. 😉 

[landroversforever]

You also get sliding calipers flexing. Chatting with David at Llama yonks back he was talking about a D2 based, RRC  bodied, comp safari car. That was full braided lines end to end and couldn't get a decent feeling pedal until they worked out it was the calipers flexing when they hit the brakes. Swapped out for fixed and the pedal was all good. 

[Bowie69]

My point is, sliding calipers work exceptionally well in reality for a normal road car, for maintenance, price and performance, and do have some inherent benefits, on a race car or a 500BHP 3-ton Range Rover price is not really a consideration any more.

[reb78]

16 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

@FridgeFreezer it's probably pot luck but I'd say I've had the opposite to you over the years. Only ever had one piston stick on a fixed caliper but almost always had to battle with sliding calipers when working on the brakes.

Not saying ones better than the other, my personal preference is fixed ones based purely on the fact I've had less issues with them.

I agree in that I have had more.issues with sliding calipers, but interestingly, the issue i seem to frequently have is seized pistons on sliding caliper designs. I have rarely (never actually) had issues with the sliding pins!

[Stellaghost]

WOW, I got a real treat today

My neighbours son works for a Landrover dealership he came to see his dad in this today HSE 130 300 ?

Asked to have a look at it and he handed me the keys and told me to take it up the road 

First off it's massive, however it goes like s%%t off a stick, quiet  info screen very clear, cabin spacious...

Damn I wish I had the 90k to buy one....really I was very impressed at how good it was

Regards Stephen 

[Escape]

7 hours ago, landroversforever said:

You also get sliding calipers flexing. Chatting with David at Llama yonks back he was talking about a D2 based, RRC  bodied, comp safari car. That was full braided lines end to end and couldn't get a decent feeling pedal until they worked out it was the calipers flexing when they hit the brakes. Swapped out for fixed and the pedal was all good. 

I actually noticed the calipers flexing while bleeding the brakes on Phoenix yesterday! Never felt that while driving though.

I do agree with @Bowie69 they are a cost efficient solution that is more than adequate in most situations.

[landroversforever]

14 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

WOW, I got a real treat today

My neighbours son works for a Landrover dealership he came to see his dad in this today HSE 130 300 ?

Asked to have a look at it and he handed me the keys and told me to take it up the road 

First off it's massive, however it goes like s%%t off a stick, quiet  info screen very clear, cabin spacious...

Damn I wish I had the 90k to buy one....really I was very impressed at how good it was

Regards Stephen 

I do like the '130'. I think the proportions are a bit better than the short back end of the 110 and 90.

[Stinkfloyd]

I have been up in the Scottish Highlands this week and have seen more new defenders in this 1 week than I think I have seen in the previous year. They seem to be very popular up here. 

I have to say that I only saw 2 130's in my time here but they strike me as a far more well proportioned vehicle than the old 130. But though I have never been opposed to the new defender, it has grown on me the more I have seen them.

Of all the options available, the 130 would seem to be a bit too long for most people to put up with day-to-day as parking spaces, tight car parks etc don't seem to be its forte. However as a workhorse like its predecessor, it would appear to fit the bill with the added space but with the cost of the 130 model, i think it will most likely be reserved for those who need a vehicle for long journeys or for something flashy on their country estate.

I noticed Harry's garage used one for a skiing trip to France..  at the price point and trim level of the 130, I think that will be its niche. 

If I had the money though, I would without doubt buy a 110 as a daily driver as I have a fairly lengthy commute and a few big journeys every year. But would be to sit alongside my current defender rather than replace it! 

Edited April 4 by Stinkfloyd

[Ed Poore]

3 hours ago, Stinkfloyd said:

If I had the money though, I would without doubt buy a 110 as a daily driver as I have a fairly lengthy commute and a few big journeys every year. But would be to sit alongside my current defender rather than replace it!

My biggest problem with the new Defender is the L322. I'm not one for buying new vehicles, I'd rather buy a good vehicle even if that's an older one. I got my current L322 about the same time that James bought his 110. For the price he paid for a fairly basic model I got a 4.4TDV8 admittedly with 100k on the clock but a £30-40k price difference makes for a lot of diesel and a lot of repairs if needed.

Is the new Defender more comfortable on long journeys than a 2011 RR? I seriously doubt it. Does it tow any better? Again I seriously doubt it particularly with a 330hp/700Nm engine under the RRs bonnet. Is the new Defender any better off road? Again I doubt there's much in it, the Defender does have a slightly better selection of tyres going for it I suspect because of the smaller wheels available. I guess the new Defender is slightly more practical for hosing down / slightly more utilitarian but then again for £60k you could buy two L322s, panel out one of them and completely trash it inside and still be cheaper.

Horses for courses I guess, people have their preferences (otherwise it'd be a bloody boring old world). To me I can't look past the saving of £40-50k on a secondhand RR for what would be on daily use the better vehicle (in at least my opinion). I have taken mine on some fairly serious stuff off-road but tend to avoid it, mainly because it's nice having a tidy vehicle for the occasions you need it but equally they've had dead deer chucked in the back on the rubber bootliner. My old 110 has scratches all over it, battered and bruised, in an daily use and doesn't mind having a few more scratches added to it. If the RR got the same way I suspect we'd take it off road more but for now it's relatively scratch free.

[Snagger]

I have seen a handful of 130s down here, but plenty of 90 and 110.  The 130 is pretty big, though so is the latest RR.  For the price and capability, I’d side with Ed - the L322 is well known and well supported, so finding a good one and fixing up any problems would be far cheaper, and you wouldn’t end up as precious about it.  It’d be less likely to be stolen, too.  The Defender would have the advantage of a wider accessories range for camping and overland work, though.

As for the callipers, yep, cost and fancy wheels are the reasons.  The slim outboard side allows easier packaging behind the rims, needs less material and you only have to machine half the number of pistons and bores.  However, from a technical perspective, they are hugely inferior.  Apart from the potential for sticking slider pins, the and ignoring the efficiency losses through calliper flexing or friction in those pins, the pistons would have to be twice the sectional area of those on fixed callipers to have the same clamping force, and pistons that size would demand a calliper that would be very difficult to fit inside a rim of sensible size for an off road vehicle.  That is why the big-engined Defenders are hobbled by oversize rims and low profile tyres.  It’s a poor engineering choice that was probably forced on them by aesthetic constraints, knowing McGovern and his excessive influence.

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

That is why the big-engined Defenders are hobbled by oversize rims and low profile tyres.  It’s a poor engineering choice that was probably forced on them by aesthetic constraints, knowing McGovern and his excessive influence.

When you've got that power under the bonnet though it is nice having big brakes. A friend drove my old 3.6 up to Scotland when we went stalking. As we passed Ardverikie I asked how he was finding it, he said it was a bit wallowy in the corners. I said well it's not the "sport" version but check the speedo next time it feels a bit wallowy.

Next time we went around a corner there was a string of expletives. He thought he'd been going around corners at 20-30mph but because it drove so smoothly and he enjoyed driving he was actually cornering more like 50-60mph. The big brakes had unwittingly got him out of trouble without him realising.

He did end up knocking 3h off what would have been a 12h journey...

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

The 130 is pretty big

Unless you go to America where it looks like a perfectly regular-sized vehicle next to some of the tanks they drive.

I remember landing in Alaska and seeing a D3 in the car park looking like a Suzuki Jimny nestled into the row of vast pickup trucks.

[Stinkfloyd]

13 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

My biggest problem with the new Defender is the L322. I'm not one for buying new vehicles, I'd rather buy a good vehicle even if that's an older one. I got my current L322 about the same time that James bought his 110. For the price he paid for a fairly basic model I got a 4.4TDV8 admittedly with 100k on the clock but a £30-40k price difference makes for a lot of diesel and a lot of repairs if needed.

Is the new Defender more comfortable on long journeys than a 2011 RR? I seriously doubt it. Does it tow any better? Again I seriously doubt it particularly with a 330hp/700Nm engine under the RRs bonnet. Is the new Defender any better off road? Again I doubt there's much in it, the Defender does have a slightly better selection of tyres going for it I suspect because of the smaller wheels available. I guess the new Defender is slightly more practical for hosing down / slightly more utilitarian but then again for £60k you could buy two L322s, panel out one of them and completely trash it inside and still be cheaper.

Horses for courses I guess, people have their preferences (otherwise it'd be a bloody boring old world). To me I can't look past the saving of £40-50k on a secondhand RR for what would be on daily use the better vehicle (in at least my opinion). I have taken mine on some fairly serious stuff off-road but tend to avoid it, mainly because it's nice having a tidy vehicle for the occasions you need it but equally they've had dead deer chucked in the back on the rubber bootliner. My old 110 has scratches all over it, battered and bruised, in an daily use and doesn't mind having a few more scratches added to it. If the RR got the same way I suspect we'd take it off road more but for now it's relatively scratch free.

I never thought of that, the l322 is a very appealing option when you out it like that. 

 

As you said, it is less capable of being wiped down but at the cost, you could genuinely have a clean and a dirty one. 

The only saviour for the new defender is that has a 24 plate and there are a large number of people who need that to impress their neighbours. 

[FridgeFreezer]

That reminds me of a SniffPetrol headline suggesting VW were going to start manufacturing used Golfs as those were considered the best car you could buy at one time

I don't know how a new RR or Disco or Velar stacks up against a new Defender in terms of price & spec?

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Unless you go to America where it looks like a perfectly regular-sized vehicle next to some of the tanks they drive.

I remember landing in Alaska and seeing a D3 in the car park looking like a Suzuki Jimny nestled into the row of vast pickup trucks.

Or down here.  Lots of US vehicles here, especially pickups.

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

When you've got that power under the bonnet though it is nice having big brakes. A friend drove my old 3.6 up to Scotland when we went stalking. As we passed Ardverikie I asked how he was finding it, he said it was a bit wallowy in the corners. I said well it's not the "sport" version but check the speedo next time it feels a bit wallowy.

Next time we went around a corner there was a string of expletives. He thought he'd been going around corners at 20-30mph but because it drove so smoothly and he enjoyed driving he was actually cornering more like 50-60mph. The big brakes had unwittingly got him out of trouble without him realising.

He did end up knocking 3h off what would have been a 12h journey...

I quite understand the need for larger brakes - the big engined variants would be quick.  It’s the nature of the single-acting callipers that I’m critical of.  I suppose they would have needed wheels with a bigger rear void for double-acting callipers, but they’d have had more clamping pressure which would have allowed a smaller diameter.  Maybe it’s the lack of space from the complex suspension…

[Ed Poore]

20 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I don't know how a new RR or Disco or Velar stacks up against a new Defender in terms of price & spec?

It used to be that the RR got all the toys pretty much as standard. However I just went on to their website and who knows . It all seems to be down to wheel and colour choice and how many motors in your seat.

I couldn't even find our what the different PXXX engine numbers actually were. I know it refers to the horse power so P530 was a 530hp petrol, but V6, I6, V8?! Actually ended up Googling to find out that maybe the P530 engine was a 4.4l V8.

Regardless the RR started at £104k... 

Mind you I hated the look of the old Sport but in the current line up it looks a lot better than the elephant arsed Range Rover. Much prefer the look of the L322 though.

[elbekko]

40 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

Regardless the RR started at £104k... 

Yup, the Defender is very much the entry level "proper" Land Rover now, anything else with low range (FFRR, RRS) start at ludicrous prices.

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, elbekko said:

Yup, the Defender is very much the entry level "proper" Land Rover now, anything else with low range (FFRR, RRS) start at ludicrous prices.

60k is entry level these days then?

Mind you even if I won the lottery I'd be more likely to spend 100k+ on restoring my fleet of old bangers than on a single new car whatever that might be.