1969109 Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) Right i have owned a 1969 straight 6 ( now perkins prima powered) 109 for 15 years. It has all been restored by me over the years new galv chassis galv bulkhead etc. It has an ENV rear axle from new ( optional extra on 109 straight 6) It has developed some slop is the drive uptake in the diff, i have been told the env is not really servicable as parts are expensive and hard to find now) --So would it be correct that the slop in the diff is unlikely to be rectified by taking it out and adjusting backlash? -- what would my replacement rear axle options be? Sailsbury or rover? Many thanks Matt Edited September 26, 2022 by 1969109 Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 Welkom to the MadHouse Matt. Love to see some pice ! Grown Ups will come by but basically anything is possible - wallet permitting of course. A diff that has wear after 55 years + is to be expected. I just replaced the Rover diff behind the 200 Tdi with another Rover one. Anything eventually gives up. We have some serious diff rebuilders here so let's see what they have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 26, 2022 Author Share Posted September 26, 2022 Many thanks for the reply, here are some pic of my 109 the rebuild including splitting the diff from housing was done in 2015, i didnt adjust the diff so it is untouched. At the time it all looked immaculate inside so i am still wondering what is worn to give the backlash issue, could something have got loose? Any thoughts on sraying with the env ( if anyone can point me towards a service manual that actually gives instruction on the env) Or advise on finding me a good price for a sailsbury that i can build up and swap in 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 26, 2022 Author Share Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) What sort of price are sailsbury axles needing renovating? Edited September 26, 2022 by 1969109 Made mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 @Hybrid_From_Hell on here may be able to have a look at it as he builds diffs for a living. The S3 109 salisbury and prop will bolt in as would a Rover axle and prop. Have you checked the drive flange/halfshaft spline for free play? Very nice truck, and welcome. Out of interest, which supplier did you use for the galv. BH and how did it fit together? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 1 hour ago, 1969109 said: Any thoughts on staying with the env ( if anyone can point me towards a service manual that actually gives instruction on the env) A Service Manual other than the Workshop Manual? Section E1-14A is titled Overhaul. The immediately preceding pages show an exploded view, with key. This isn't work I would undertake, on any differential, but for those with the skills / training it seems the information is there. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 26, 2022 Author Share Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) Hi thanks for the reply, Its a richards chassis which they welded the engine mounts in my specified place for the perkins prima engine that i had been running in the old chassis for 7 years. The bulkhead i bought as £50 rotter and put new pillars, footwells and then converted it to a straight six bulkhead with the removable centre panel and gearbox over panel, this was because the position of the engine and gearbox and propshafts were all set by originally having the straight 6. I fabricated the two additional panels from 16 gauge steel and had them galvanivlzed as well. I had this done at Cardif galvanizers. Also yes have checked the half shaft its not that but will double check again before i pull the diff. Edited September 26, 2022 by 1969109 Added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 Despite its age, I doubt there would be much wrong with the diff gears unless it has been abused or neglected. I’d suspect the Mose wear would be in the splines of the drive flanges and maybe the half shafts. You could have some wear on the pinion flange too, so it has slack on the pinion itself. Those parts are all relatively cheap to replace. if you do have to replace the axle, then I’d strongly recommend choosing a Salisbury. A Rover axle isn’t really strong enough for a 109. A decent Salisbury should cost you a couple of hundred pounds, but might need a bit of work on the brakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaghost Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 3 hours ago, 1969109 said: Hi thanks for the reply, Its a richards chassis which they welded the engine mounts in my specified place for the perkins prima engine that i had been running in the old chassis for 7 years. The bulkhead i bought as £50 rotter and put new pillars, footwells and then converted it to a straight six bulkhead with the removable centre panel and gearbox over panel, this was because the position of the engine and gearbox and propshafts were all set by originally having the straight 6. I fabricated the two additional panels from 16 gauge steel and had them galvanivlzed as well. I had this done at Cardif galvanizers. Also yes have checked the half shaft its not that but will double check again before i pull the diff. Nice fabrication regards Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 Looking very nice ! Have a look at my post about a number - it shows how diffs after 50-60 years sometimes go wrong... Nigel could rebuild the axle for you no doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 27, 2022 Author Share Posted September 27, 2022 Right got some video of today. I took the prop of to see what play i have with the ENV rear diff. This first video is with both drive flanges bolted up and wheels on the ground https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknvzB9-k68PTEEbJ The next is the minimal play in the half shaft to drive flange https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknqki5sQkLh0VTHI The next is as above drive flange unbolted but half shaft still engaged to look for play by turning the drive flange back and forth and observing the pinion flange. https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknxVwnKUMIbxUnrx Does this spread any light for you people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 What do the splines look like on the other end of the halfshaft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 27, 2022 Author Share Posted September 27, 2022 They looked ok 7 years ago:) trouble with an env axle is you need to take off the brake back plate and stub axle to allow the half shafts to be withdrawn due to their size, the looked like this last time they were out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 Beautiful truck !! Great work on that. That play all looks alright to me - if the diff turned immediately from the drive flange - the inner splines should be fine. I couldn’t see any movement that looked bad on the flanges, and the movement on the diff didn’t look much beyond the gears engaging from one side of the teeth to the other ? 🤷🏻♂️ If it’s clonking could it be the slip joint in your prop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 As above, not particularly concerned about that amount of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969109 Posted September 27, 2022 Author Share Posted September 27, 2022 😃 thanks for the replies, the final video i did earlier today was looking back at the gearbox, engaging 1st and.looking at the movement before the gearbox output resists in each direction, does this look normal. I totally rebuilt the gearbox 7 years ago with a nos layshaft and all new quality bearings, it has a nice quiet fairey overdrive. Im wondering about that castle nut in the box near the overdrive, should i check if that is looke or does it all look ok? https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEkn10ZSVCWlhtqhsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 The mainshaft nut is worth checking. Any trouble engaging third and fourth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Okey Dokey All Here is a mass amount of info on diffs, options types etc Might be worth shoving in the Tech Forum ? From my website - "The A-Z of diffs for Land rovers" : Megasquirt for V8 engines - A-Z of Diffs for LRs (megasquirt-v8.co.uk) However thoughts on the ENV issue / Question. There are about 5 "main" differentials for Land Rover No 1. Early Superlong Long Nose units Made for about max 2 years unique, and rare 4.88:1 Ratios and 4.7:1 Ratios. Pros - Originality if on an 80 Cons - Rare seriously expensive to buy and worse to rebuild some parts NLA No 2 - Long Nose Fitted to loads of LRs Basic model is the rubbish 2 pin, in early 16mm cross pin, later 18mm but still junk some 10 spline some 24 spline, some factory LSD can be upgraded with all sorts of options from 4 pins ATBs, LSDs Lockers HD CWPS Pegged etc etc There are numerous styles of casings - earliest best and got cost saved and worst as it when on - the last puma Casings being the worst : Pros : availability / Prices / Options to upgrade and more HD options than any other LR diff inc more Ratios HD CWPS Etc Can be made BLOODY strong, but can then get expensive, high end builds always sell well as big market. Cons, weak as standard some early split nose casing parts can be expensive some parts NLA new No 3. Short Nose Diff The Laughable replacement to the Salisbury, as the military demanded a removable diff unit for the 110s which could be fixed fast in feild of fire vs salisbury 2 pins still weak as cheese, 4 pins not that great with tenant joint cross pins, can be beefed up. Pros - Not a clunky heavy expensive to repair Salisbury More upgrade options, but less than Long Nose Cheaper to repair that Salisbury Repairs don't need entire axle removal ! Cons - Not a Salisbury, but not clunky and can be made bloody strong Silly THIN crown wheel, pegging resolves this Poor locking system on carrier cap - we can sort this too No 4. - Salisbury Basically an old American Truck axle differential that LR bought on the cheap- A yonks old Dana 60. Big heavy and clunky Was made for Series and then coil axles, both very different and not swapable inc centres. Can be drum brake and later are disc. Pros - Strong centre, Good for ploughing trenches to put potatoes in behind you (Casing can be shaved) Cons. - The true Dana 60 comes with MASSIVE 35 spline drive gears and huge shafts, LRs Salisbury uses LR drive gears and 24 spline shafts, so whilst diff is massively strong ...the shafts aren't ! Work is VERY expensive both on parts and labour (we no longer touch these) Few upgrade options. Casings can fracture the side tube from the pigs head Special Clamp kit needed to stretch the case to remove centre The centre itself is what makes it strong, swap for any other centre and its way weaker Silly LR shafts Entire axle removal for diff work And however well built clunky and horrible (Yes I do not like them ) Marmite diff ! No 5 - ENV Diff Fitted to Series 2 LWB Rear axles for owners wnating something more HD than std LRs options. Was a short lived project by Eaton, so quality, and involved Vauxhall Morris and I think Nuffiled, and was also on Morris commercials for a short while along with early S2 Forward control trucks. Only made in 4:7 ratio, and have special axle tubes Replaced by Salisbury due to costs Pros Pretty Strong .... and rare ! - (The Ooooooooooooo Factor ! ) Originality if required HUGE half shafts - never known one break Not a lump like the Salisbury ie Removable from casing Cons - These are known to have pinion issues VERY expensive to repair (oil seal is sort of £40+ VAT !! ) Many parts NLA Clunky even when rebuilt So, lesson over so what the answer to the ENV question in my mind ? As to the question of what to do with the current ENV ? My advise is 1st - leave it alone - if you tighten up the backlash you could really upset it and it could become nosiey, new CWPs are around £550 ish and Genuine only, costs to rebuild are bonkers and some bits NLA, last one we did we had to make some replacement parts to get it to behave. They ARE clunky anyway, so even rebuilt it will be LESS clunky, if you want Clunky then a Salisbury is a good choice to swap one clunky diff for another ! Better oils would help without a doubt - shove Swepco in it and I'll place a bet it will calm it down : Oil is not just oil, this stuff is absolutely amazing - I use it on high end builds and in my truck, www.is4x4.com speak to Mark, tell him I sent you ! You could go for a short nose - and you can have more options ATB 4 Pin Pegged but you would need to buy a 4.7 CWP Ashcroft no longer do these for Short Nose, would have to be a KAM unit as only ones that make them, would get quite expensive - so I would say avoid this route. Would also be wider axle too and pig to fit My advice other than add Swepco, and leave alone is if you really want a quiet smooth axle, go for a series axle with a series diff, and I have still got around 110 Genuine New Old stock 4.7 CWPs (don't ask) or a HD Ashcroft 4.7 CWP (Cheaper) add maybe a 4 pin and you'd have a strong diff which looks period (salisbury won't) My best advise is leave alone.... or go Series something .....and forget Salisbury ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 12 hours ago, Gazzar said: The mainshaft nut is worth checking. Any trouble engaging third and fourth? I wonder if this is what’s happening to mine … 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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