gazelle Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Yesterday I helped to recover a car which was stuck in a green lane (courtesy of Tomtom), and the RAC van that was trying to recover the car. It got me thinking about what happens if the car was damaged during the recovery I was making. (It was passenger side down in a ditch with water in that side). What is the legal position on this. If they are stupid enough to drive a car down a lane is it their lookout? If damage occurs during recovery, who is liable? If liability is on the assisting party, then is it worth stopping or is it best to keep going and leave them to it? Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I'll bet your insurers won't pay up as your policy won't cover you for this sort of thing. If you caused damage to the vehicle recovering it, then it would be out of your pocket. If the vehicle damaged yours while being recovered - the owners insurers won't pay up either, so everything would be out of your own pocket. I think, you might technically be committing an offense as well if the vehicle is on a public road. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8bertha Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Legal stuff sucks! When we did our LANTRA training with a certain beardy forum member his advice to us was that if you are going to attempt a recovery, have the "recover-ee" sign a piece of paper stating that they won't hold you responsible for any damage caused. I've also just done an assessment for the local 4x4 Response group and they mentioned something along these lines too. So from this I would surmise that the liability for any damage or injury is with the "recoverer", despite any good natured intentions you may have. Sucks, don't it! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 I think, you might technically be committing an offense as well if the vehicle is on a public road.Les. By public roads do you mean metalled roads, or does this include un-metalled byways? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Un-metalled ByWays are still public roads, in fact all Green Lanes, ByWays, BOATS etc that are still open to the public and therefore are public roads. HTH Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 So from this I would surmise that the liability for any damage or injury is with the "recoverer", despite any good natured intentions you may have. Would that still hold if undertaken under the direction of the RAC for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 The RAC has no authority over you, so it would come down to whether the RAC guy admits he told you to do it. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Would that still hold if undertaken under the direction of the RAC for example? I very much doubt the RAC insurers will not cover damage to either your vehicle of the vehicle you are attempting to recover. What are the consequences if someone is injured? No matter how tempting it is to be the good Samaritan I think in this country these days some things are best left to the professionals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Would that still hold if undertaken under the direction of the RAC for example? I suspect that would only happen if the RAC gave you a written chit stating that their unsurance had been extended to yourself..... .,.....signed in triplicate by the pope,the queen and the Dali Lama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 BTW I am not aware of any damage caused during the recovery. The query is related to whether I stop again in future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8CAMEL Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I very much doubt the RAC insurers will not cover damage to either your vehicle of the vehicle you are attempting to recover. What are the consequences if someone is injured? No matter how tempting it is to be the good Samaritan I think in this country these days some things are best left to the professionals. didnt something similar to this occur at billing a few years ago where a over zealous marshall recovering a p38 park the front end of the p38 into a gatepost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I seem to remember that someone advised that if you are asked to recover someone get them to attach the tow rope / strap to their own vehicle so that you are not liable for any damage - but it is still risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I think, you might technically be committing an offense as well if the vehicle is on a public road.Les. I'm not of aware of any laws stopping you from recovering someone, the only issues that I can think would crop up would be: Further unnecessary obstruction of the road (despite good intentions, the only people who can instruct traffic to stop are the police, police-employed traffic wardens (a rarity now), PCSOs, and Highways Agency Traffic Officers) No warning equipment (hazard lights don't count) Restrictions on towing once recovered (tow rope versus rigid bar on the motorway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Its worth noting that no-one has ever been successfully sued in this country for offering first aid, even when it has been unsuccessful, or, perish the thought, inappropriate. Fact is the courts have to prove negligence. I guess if you do something sensibly and things go wrong through no fault of your own (you didn't stick it in the ditch after all), and you stop before it gets any worse you are unlikely to be sued. If however you back up, tie a rope to the bumper and proceed to pull it off damaging an otherwise unmarked vehicle then you might not get away with it. Its all ifs & buts. Fear of litigation will never stop me from offering to help as I feel happy with my ability to assess the situation and to know when to stop before it gets any worse. If you aren't 100% happy with the situation though wait for the experts (read- people with adequate insurance to cover 'emselfs when they screw up!!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle Posted June 4, 2008 Author Share Posted June 4, 2008 That raises the question - Who would be inclined to stop and who would not? Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I was asked to recover a zook once on private land. The owner didn't want to mess about in the water to find the tow point, so decided to attach the rope to his spare wheel carrier. I said it wouldn't be strong enough, but he said 'give it a go anyway'. I did - and it ripped the carrier off and the nice gent then gave me £20 for my trouble ! Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 That raises the question - Who would be inclined to stop and who would not?Martin I have helped out stuck motorist on several occaions (I live on a narrow road with muddy fields on both sides ) and will do so again. Best reward I got was from a salesman who gave me 3 gift wrapped bottles of wine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcowz Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I spoke to my insurance company (NFU) about this only last fortnight as I was advising them that I had fitted a winch and was interested in where I stood in the event of damage while recovering.. They spoke to their underwriters and said that I was fully covered for any damage caused while recovering a vehicle either off road or on the tarmac as long as this was not as part of a business. After reading this topic, what I am now unsure of is, if there is damage either to the 'recoveree', yourself or other property during the recovery. Would their insurance pay or could they try to claim against yours. I for one wouldn't want to lose my no claims after ripping plastic trim off. Interesting points. BTW, the last time I helped recovery someone, it was a fish delivery van and we ate top quality smoked salmon for days afterwards. Yum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 This is a very interesting question. I have never really thought about the legal aspect of recovering someone. I have only ever done one recovery, and it happened to be to another Defender. If I found myself helping a "regular" motorist, i.e someone with a less sturdy vehicle, I would explain that there may be a chance for something to go wrong. If there was a chance of there being an injury to a person, then I would not attempt it. If there was only potential for cosmetic damage to a vehicle & I mentioned as much to the recover-ee, if they still wanted my help I would do so. You would end up with a "Gentleman's Agreement".....they found themselves needing help, you offered, damaged was caused.......you would or should not really sue or try to claim against a Samaritan? If I thought there was going to be no damage to my own vehicle, and there ended up being minor damage....then its my own fault for helping. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 . You would end up with a "Gentleman's Agreement".....they found themselves needing help, you offered, damaged was caused.......you would or should not really sue or try to claim against a Samaritan? Trouble is, in this day & age, a gentlemans agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on. take the USA, i've heard of people sueing good samaritans for trying mouth-to-mouth to help someone (and it went t!ts up IIRC). too many people are willing to dial 0800-no-job-sat-watching-jeremy-kyle-lets-make-a-fast-buck these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Trouble is, in this day & age, a gentlemans agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on. take the USA, i've heard of people sueing good samaritans for trying mouth-to-mouth to help someone Too true unfortunately Jim. Did you see that episode of Top Gear when they did the road trip in America? They ended up in New Orleans just after hurricane Catrina, and were going to sell the cars they bought, but after seeing the damage caused there, they decided to give the cars away to people who had lost theirs. They tried to sue Clarkson because he said it was a 1990 model, but was actually a 1989. If I helped someone out, and damage was caused after coming to a gentlemans agreement, then they would have to take me to court to prove negligence on my part. On the subject of First Aid, I had to do a course for work a few years ago, and I actually asked the teacher about this. It is/was currently UK law, that a qualified first aider cannot be held responsible for further injuries to a person, if they are trying to help them. The only disturbing thing was, and its showing the world we live in nowadays, that if you give first aid to a child or minor, you should get a witness to watch you help, so that there can be no claim of molestation. If there are no witnesses, then you have to decide to help or not. I think that is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 My insurance states winch is for self recovery only. if someone is in danger i'll help regardless if it is helping out the RAC etc they have access to all the recovery gear/trucks etc they are paid for the service, let them deal with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastcard Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 A couple of years ago, I pulled a car off the hard (sea) in North Norfolk that was up to the doors in an incoming tide. When the owner returned, he pushed his way through the crowd that had gathered and having glared at me, checked all around his car for damage before just driving off. The temptation to do a 'reverse recovery' back to where I had found it was very tempting Needless to say, I suspect if he had found damage he would have spoken to / blamed me. I also suspect there may be a boss of a blinds company in Poole wondering why one of his vehicles is rusting rather quickly!! At the time, I was advised to leave it because I did not have the owners permission to move it and may have rendered me liable, but I erroneously thought most people on this planet would be grateful. Hey ho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godlykepower Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I would never touch anyones vehicle without them being there. Now THAT is just opening yourself up to some unscrupulous little toe rag trying to pull a fast one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharp Pointy Thing Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 The temptation to do a 'reverse recovery' back to where I had found it was very tempting My dad's friend did that many years ago, when he was called out in his 109 breakdown truck to a guy who'd driven his car into a ditch.....pulled him out, asked for his payment and the guy said "na, sod you I'm not paying you, well you pulled me out now!" My dad's friend replied "oh ok, it's like THAT is it?" "yeah it is, what you going to do about it?" So he got back in the 109, reversed, pushed him in the ditch and drove off.... he'll probabaly pay up next time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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