R380 Rebuild / Recon... WHERE'S THE TECH???

[Astro_Al]

I've looked on just about all the forums I know of and can't find a single thread on how to rebuild an R380.

I'm trying to figure out if it is possible and/or economical to rebuild a knackered one? I'll need to change the input shaft anyway (ok, I don't have the box yet, but it won't come with the right one, guaranteed).

So.

Anyone done it? Tools needed? Skill factor (spanner rating)? Costs (ish)? Advice on finding a 2nd hand one?

Is it better to just do the Ashcrofts thing? People seem to be asking this a lot recently, but not about the R380.

Help!

Al.

[will_warne]

I've looked on just about all the forums I know of and can't find a single thread on how to rebuild an R380.

I'm trying to figure out if it is possible and/or economical to rebuild a knackered one? I'll need to change the input shaft anyway (ok, I don't have the box yet, but it won't come with the right one, guaranteed).

So.

Anyone done it? Tools needed? Skill factor (spanner rating)? Costs (ish)? Advice on finding a 2nd hand one?

Is it better to just do the Ashcrofts thing? People seem to be asking this a lot recently, but not about the R380.

Help!

Al.

Tonks rebuilt his LT77 from a £1 donar box bought on ebay so its probably worth giving him a shout.

[LR90]

Some of us went up to the land rover academy with the Camel owners club a few weeks back striping/rebuilding 200TDi/LT77 on the Monday and 300TDi/R380 on the Tuesday.

I could only go Monday so didn't see the R380 but hopefuly someone else here will post up.

FWIW the LT77 was relatively straight forward and the exercise was very interresting but I'm not sure I'd want to tackle it without the special tools, though as Tonk shows with ingenuity and enough fab facilities anything seems possible. I would guess the R380 is similar.

[BogMonster]

I think to be honest apart from the early R380s which suffered mainshafts snapping (any should long since have failed and been replaced by the new type shafts by now) and spline wear, the R380s seem to wear out pretty evenly so once one bit is knackered it's probably all fairly knackered. The failed ones I have seen, apart from the above faults, have all been high mileage ones which have had a hard time and were pretty comprehensively worn out!

Also IMHO unless you really know what you are doing, it is a job better left to experts to judge what needs replacing, otherwise you could end up with half a job, I wouldn't tackle a full rebuild myself I don't think, though it would be an interesting exercise. Mainly though, I wouldn't do it for 2 reasons which really apply to any gearbox....

1) because it involves taking the vehicle off the road for the whole time you are doing it instead of just stuffing an exchange unit in

2) because you never know what you need and if it turns into a big job needing lots of bits you could end up spending as much as the cost of a recon unit, plus all your time and all the hassle of the vehicle being off the road

[Top90]

There is also a specific manual for the R380 that should tell you anything you want to know.

Have you tried ebay, someone might have copied it on to CD.

Richard

[will_warne]

There is also a specific manual for the R380 that should tell you anything you want to know.

Have you tried ebay, someone might have copied it on to CD.

Richard

Al, I've got the 300tdi and R380 manual recondition manual somewhere. If you'd like to borrow it just give me a shout.

[Exmoor Beast]

A mate rebuilt the R380 on our Disco, new seals and bearings, it cost about £170 with the new clutch.

I downloaded the rebuild manual off the net from somewhere, can't remember where.

Apparently the rebuild is easy with the manual, just keep everything very clean. You will need a LR tool to remove one seal, I went into the main dealer and they did it for nothing, well one of the mechanics did when his boss turned his back

____

Devon 4x4 are fitting an Ashcroft R380 to our P38a as I type. £545+VAT + £40p&p for the box +£350 surcharge until the old box gets back to Ashcrofts. Devon4x4 reckon 8-10hours fitting.

Not a cheap day then

Will

[Astro_Al]

Thanks for the input guys. If anyone went to the 'R380 day' please let me know.

Good point Bogbuster, but since the vehicle is mid-ground up build anyway, that's not an issue, well, not as much as the 875 quid for an Ashcrofts recon one (though I'm sure it's done well).

I've got to get stuck into my LT230 anyway, to lock up the centre diff (so I'll replace an bearings, seals etc and check for knackered bits at the same time). So I figured I may as well try the gearbox too. Hence the question really...

I've got the R380 'Overhaul Manual', but you can never tell if it's as straightforward as the manual suggests (usually not), which is why I was looking for someone who's done it.

To be honest, I'm surprised that with all these R380s everywhere, more people haven't done it. I can fab up any pullers or tools required, and I need to make a press anyway...

Any more? Anyone got an old box going (for a quid sounds pretty sweet...).

Al.

[will_warne]

Thanks for the input guys. If anyone went to the 'R380 day' please let me know.

Good point Bogbuster, but since the vehicle is mid-ground up build anyway, that's not an issue, well, not as much as the 875 quid for an Ashcrofts recon one (though I'm sure it's done well).

I've got to get stuck into my LT230 anyway, to lock up the centre diff (so I'll replace an bearings, seals etc and check for knackered bits at the same time). So I figured I may as well try the gearbox too. Hence the question really...

I've got the R380 'Overhaul Manual', but you can never tell if it's as straightforward as the manual suggests (usually not), which is why I was looking for someone who's done it.

To be honest, I'm surprised that with all these R380s everywhere, more people haven't done it. I can fab up any pullers or tools required, and I need to make a press anyway...

Any more? Anyone got an old box going (for a quid sounds pretty sweet...).

Al.

Al, I guess the price Ashcroft gave you will be for one with TVR spec internals so'll be quite a bit harder to break than a standard one. I'm not sure how easy they'll be to get hold of privatly.

The other thing is you know it'll be done right and if it goes wrong you've got some comeback. They'll also do it pretty quickly (my box took less than 5 working days to get back to me).

[Astro_Al]

Will, the quote was for: "R380, rebuilt, outright suffix L with short front end £ 745" (and then + VAT).

The 'short front end' is the specific input shaft I need.

I know what you're saying though. I think it'd be interesting to do a recon myself anyway - nice to know what's going on in there.

Is there some reason people are more keen to rip apart their series box and have a bash at rebuilding. It's beginning to seem almost taboo to suggest doing an R380 myself... Surely the principles are the same?

Al.

[ashtrans]

Will, the quote was for: "R380, rebuilt, outright suffix L with short front end £ 745" (and then + VAT).

The 'short front end' is the specific input shaft I need.

I know what you're saying though. I think it'd be interesting to do a recon myself anyway - nice to know what's going on in there.

Is there some reason people are more keen to rip apart their series box and have a bash at rebuilding. It's beginning to seem almost taboo to suggest doing an R380 myself... Surely the principles are the same?

Al.

Hi Al,

if you can find a good used R 380 (preferable a TD5, suffix L one) I can either talk you through a pinion swap or it won't cost you a lot if you bring it to us to do, about £ 75 labour + parts.

If you want to short front end and you start with a TDi or TD5 you will need to change :

Pinion

cone cone

bellhousing

1 special countersunk bellhousing bolt

clutch fork pivot ball and mount

two problems with the above conversion is getting a short R 380 bellhousing, as far as I am aware it (FTC4018 I think) is on factory back order but even if it is available they are about 300 + VAT,

the readily available short pinion shaft is for the type 50A as used in the 2.5 N/A and 2.5 petrol R 380, these pinions have 21 teeth, the Tdi or TD5 pinion shaft you remove will have 22 teeth so you will also need to change the layshaft, the 50A layshaft is only available to fit the 31 tooth 1st gear, the TDi and the TD5 one have 32 teeth so you need to change this as well,

[Jon White]

I rebuilt the LT77 in my series onto a sherpa mainshaft when I did the 5 speed conversion to series transfer box.

The LT77 requires a special tool to get the sleeve the oil seal runs on off the rear of the mainshaft. Having tried (and broken) all kinds of pullers and other tools trying to get it off I'm of the opinion that the ONLY way to get this off is to the use the correct special tool! I struggled for days, and in the end rang a mate who works at an independant specialist and he borrowed the tool from his work - took 30 seconds to remove it!!!

Once this is off you need:- a set of spanners, a pin punch, a decent set of large circlip pliers, a large gear puller (with long arms), a mallet, a set of feeler gauges, a vernier (or micrometer), and a dial gauge.

Its fairly straightforward to strip and re-build. However the puller is required since some of the bearings are tight on the shafts and difficult to remove.

The tricky bit however is shimming it all correctly. It takes ages and you keep having to strip and re-build the box checking the clearances and changing shims till its all right. The shims are also sodding expensive and never in stock so it takes bloomin ages!!! I stripped 3 boxes in the end, and even then didnt have all the correct shims I needed so ended up buying more!

I know thats LT77, never works on an R380 but I'm told they're very similar so i'd imagine its pretty similar.

Take care with gearbox numbers aswell. ON the LT77 there are different parts used dependant on the serial number and some of the early parts are hard to obtain. May well be the case with R380 also.

All in all - pretty easy, need one special tool, but the shimming it a pain and is critical you get it right!!

HTH

Jon

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Once this is off you need:- a set of spanners, a pin punch, a decent set of large circlip pliers, a large gear puller (with long arms), a mallet, a set of feeler gauges, a vernier (or micrometer), and a dial gauge.

wot about your legendary set of hammers then

Nige

[northernchris]

If i where you i would bite the bullet and give it to david at ashcrofts to do!!! I used to build boxes every day for various subarus and other types of comp boxes and to this day i wouldnt go into just quickly rebuilding a box of ANY type without having a good selection of sims etc and the right tools to do the job right first time.I am sure the ashcroft lads would look after you.

Chris

Edited January 5, 2006 by northernchris

[Astro_Al]

Hmmm. Well, conflicting ideas really... But that's what forums are all about I guess!

Dave - I already have the bellhousing, and yes, it was an absolute bugger to find (and expensive). So that's no problem.

In fact it's to mate to a V8 (using a stumpy bellhousing which has the 200tdi/series engine bolt pattern and then a series-box-to-V8 conversion ring). Complicated, but short!

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Chris - I understand your point of view, but if I never try, I'll never be able to do it! I can easily sort all the right tools, so that's not an issue, and I don't think a selection of shims will stop me! At the end of the day, once upon a time, you built your first box too... It's not neuro-surgery.

Dave - you wanna run a tutorial day? If I get you guys to do the shaft, can I watch (anorak voyeurism...)?!? B)

Jon - thanks for that. Your info agrees largely with what a guy on Pirate said about doing the R380 (eventually found SOMEONE, but it wasn't exactly full of tech...). I think it's do-able with a bit of head scratching and phone-calling. Dave - do you do a telephone consultation service?

I guess how I play it will depend on the box I find. I agree that for 75 quid labour plus parts, it's probably not worth farting about with, but then I STILL wouldn't know anything about the insides of my gearbox...! Ignorance is NOT bliss...

Thanks for your opinions. Al.

[ashtrans]

In fact it's to mate to a V8 (using a stumpy bellhousing which has the 200tdi/series engine bolt pattern and then a series-box-to-V8 conversion ring). Complicated, but short!

this is the shortest option but you will have to use the 4 cyl clutch I think as the V8 won't fit,

Dave - you wanna run a tutorial day? If I get you guys to do the shaft, can I watch (anorak voyeurism...)?!?

you are welcome to watch,

Dave - do you do a telephone consultation service?

I don't mind helping but I talk real fast when busy ! (must get one of the £1 / min lines !)

[Astro_Al]

Cheers Dave - I may take you up on that!

Are there any issues with running the 4 cyl clutch on the V8's power???

>"I don't mind helping but I talk real fast when busy ! (must get one of the £1 / min lines !)"

For a pound a minute, you'd better talk fast!

I'll tape it and play it back slo-mo.

Cheers, Al.

[ashtrans]

Are there any issues with running the 4 cyl clutch on the V8's power???

the 4 cyl is 9.5", the V8 is 10.5" plate

I guess it depends on the size of the V8,

many people have used the 4 cyl one over the years,

[Exmoor Beast]

Just hyjacking this thread to say thanks to Dave Ashcroft

I collected our P38a from Devon4x4 yesterday with its new Ashcroft R380 fitted and am well chuffed.

Excellent Service. I PM'd Dave via here on monday as I saw he was online (cheeky I know as he was still on holiday). He didn't have a suitable R380 built up but did it on Tuesday for me and it was at Devon 4x4 ready on Thursday to be fitted. Top chap.

Cheers Dave

Will

ps: please remember this glowing reference when I come back for a gearbox for my 110

[minivin]

Having stripped three LT77's so far (one C suffix SD1, one H Suffix Disco and one E suffix Defender), one two tools that have been the must have were the slitting disc on the angle grinder (when a component can be sacrificed for the good of the other parts within the box, spacers and nuts being a good one!) and the Sykes Pickavant Hydraulic Bearing Pulling kit that I borrowed from work, if it wasn't for the later tooling in particular I would have never got any of the boxes apart as the interference fits on some of the components is ludicrace. If you are going to rebuild it, find another cheap box and use it as a sacrificial goat and try and save as much of it as spares.

[A Twig]

I thought I would just add my experience today to this thread, as this was the thread that provided some decent info for me when the R380 refurb question first came up.

1) Apparently no-one in Somerset/Wiltshire wants to do the whole gearbox remove, refurb/source a refurbed gearbox and refit it. A few companies offered to do the swap if I sourced the gearbox, or refurb the gearbox if I took it out and palletted it.

I could not be arsed with palleting a gearbox from one place, and then palleting the old one back to the refurb people to get some money back, so I just wanted someone to do the whole thing, and was prepared to pay decent money for it. I even resorted to Les Henson's "favourite" Swindon based LR garage in desperation, but they, along with several other fairly noteworthy LR garages kept fobbing me off with "I'll get some prices and call you back this afternoon." which never happened. You;d think that with a recession on, people would be quite keen for relatively big jobs.

2) So, in the end, I threw caution to the wind, booked a day off work, and drove at 5:30am this morning from Bath to Luton, to do the Ashcrofts "Exchange in a day" service. I have recently had my clutch swapped so it was just going to be gearbox swap, and input gear to be swapped for a cross drilled one. Therefore the quoted price was £1008 as opposed to the usual £1080. Add to that the £70 in diesel, £10 in energy drinks and sandwiches, it was not a cheap day....

The work is done at a nearby LR garage Auto Rover or some such, chap that greeted me there at 8am was a grumpy bugger, so I gave him my keys, he gave me the courtesy car keys and off I went. I parked up round the corner and dozed for an hour in the courtey car as I was shattered and the M25 was not going to be worth driving on for a while. I was woken up by the noise of the CD changer in the car randomly whirring, and my Land Rover's alarm going off (twice). I started to worry a bit...

Anyhoo, it was my Mum's birthday, who lives sort of nearby so I tootled off and met her for lunch. I was rather suprised to receive a phone call from Ashcrofts at 2pm saying it was all done, and that I already had a cross drilled input gear apparently, so they were only going to charge me £960, happy days! I paid over the phone, and meandered back to the garage, having to stop on the way to refix the rubber windscreen seal on the courtesy car as the gaffer tape that was holding it on had come unsticky in the sun and it was waving about above the car like a lassoo.

At the garage at 3pm, we swapped keys again. "Any problems?" asks I. "Nope" says Mr Cheerful. And that was that.

I'll admit now that I was pretty dubious getting back into the LR. Expecially as it appeared that nothing had really changed, there was still bits of dirt and crud in the same place, my patented fabric tape holding the LT77 gearbox knob (a security measure) still at its jaunty angle. I peered underneath, and could see some slightly cleaner looking metal on the gearbox housing.

But I fired up the old girl, clutch down while turning the key as always, and with the gearbox still in neutral, lifted the clutch up. Not a rattle, not a squeak, not a clunk. I pulled away, got up into 3rd, then tried the dodgy change down into second (reminding myself that I didnt need to double de-clutch anymore). It worked a charm. My 3 hour drive home in the sun was an absolute joy.

I had a huge grin on my face every time I changed gear, I have never driven a Land Rover with a gearbox that felt as good as this one.

So, moral of the story:

1) True, Ashcrofts are not the cheapest

2) True, a 260 mile round trip to get a gearbox swapped is bloody silly

3) True, their chosen fitter/specialist garage does not inspire confidence.

BUT

They are HONEST, REALISTIC, FRIENDLY, HELPFUL and did a really BRILLIANT job, and were I to have to go through all this again, I would do exactly the same without a shadow of a doubt.

So, I've been as honest as I can, obviously your mileage may vary, value of investments can go up as well as down yadda yadda, but IMHO, Ashcroft's are worth every penny and will be getting any further transmission business I ever have.EDIT: Typos

[Quagmire]

Al- I vote for you doing it yourself and creating a thread on here for the tech archive

Just take your time, and do it once, don't rush like I did with my LT77 and do it twice

[robhybrid]

a week or two ago I dismantled a discovery R380 swapped the gear change selector shaft and fork for defender items and re assembled the box.

I have got a very good puller that clamps tightly over the part that has to be removed on the rear shaft.

I think the R380 is a little easier to work on than the lt77 but I wouldn't want to fix gearboxes for a living.

Took me about 2 hours to do and cost about £90 in parts.

As I have a dead discovery in the yard and want to build a defender this was the cheapest way of getting the correct box for my defender project.

[pat_pending]

There is nothing particularly difficult about the mechanics of stripping the box, the skill is in being able to assess which parts require replacement.

There's more to a box overhaul than replacing the bearings.

[Astro_Al]

Thanks for the input. This thread is 6 years old and I no longer own a land rover.

I expect the reports of real world experiences will be of use to some though.

Cheers, Al