Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hi All, With the challenge front end coming along I have looked to the winch bumper I made previously - this "rests" on the top of the chassis and has bolts through it with a plate above and below the chassis bos (plus other too). This then "extends" on a level where the bolt "Tops" are - level with the tops of the chassis into the "Side wings" of the bumper Now with the challenge bars, there is a vast amount of daylight between the top of the wings of the bumper unit and the bottom of the challenge bars. I have been considering chopping these wings off to increase and benifit from the new clearance, but I have seen "High Level" bumpers where the Wings are almost higher than mine and run almost along the base of the bottom of the challenge wings. I can't quite work out how these work ? I also was always of the opinion that for powerfull winches and best pratice the rope should be level or within the top / bottom of the chassis its bolted to, so that the winch forces are pulling in line with the chassis, and not maybe having the winch 'higher' than the chassis as this shoves huge forces that if in line are massively reduced, also high winches pulling sideways can give instability, where a winch line lower down gives more stability ?? SO, have I got the issue of line pull vs Chassis position wrong ? Can anyone post up clear pics of High Level Winch bumpers and how they fit / look etc ? Here a pic showing mine and the bumper wings vs bottom challenge wings saga / thoughts ? Shoved in here as although a 90 / defeneder they may be Discos / RRs etc so more about this generally ? Discuss please ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnover4x4 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Nige, the best choice of "off the shelf" item to match the wings is, D44's taper bumper. Shaun @ North off road used that bumper for the prototypes. Thats what im using but its been modified sligthly to accomadate my repaired front chassis legs. Ade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 Some pics to understand how it fits / mounts / sits / does its job would be good ? Nige PS I've removed the 'repeat of my post' in yours to make easier reading - hope thats ok ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 This is how my first four bumper mounts.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Lloyd Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 D44 Competition 8274 with tapered ends with matching steering guard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I also was always of the opinion that for powerfull winches and best pratice the rope should be level or within the top / bottom of the chassis its bolted to, so that the winch forces are pulling in line with the chassis, and not maybe having the winch 'higher' than the chassis as this shoves huge forces that if in line are massively reduced I agree with all of that. Having said that does anybody actually know of a chassis being bent by the winch forces like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I can understand the theory of mounting a winch in the location you describe... but my Milemarker is mounted in a first four off road raised tubular winch bumper- the same as SteveG but with the a-bar- the winch tray sitting level with the top of the chassis rails. I have pretty much stalled the MM a few times with really silly pulls (pretty much 5 tons then...) and have no signs of the bumper or chassis distorting at all- I would suggest that to do so you would need to be pulling hard enough to cause damage elsewhere on the vehicle- i.e. what ever the vehicle is caught up on holding it back- axles etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 I agree with all of that. Having said that does anybody actually know of a chassis being bent by the winch forces like that? Hmmmmmmm Need to get my brain thinking on and around this issue, whilst I don't know of any chassis damage 1st hand I am sure that a winch mounted high up can make in recovery situations for a more unstable 4x4, also there is maybe an advantage too, as it may keep the plasma (in my vase) off and away from the ground better than a lower winch unit. I would guess looking at the pics Steve G has posted up that the hawse is near level with the top of the chassis rail, where in mine is closer to level with the bottom, so "strength / Strain" wise it may not be as much of an issue as I 1st wondered, wheres that Mr Bish and his box of gruntomology calcs when you need him ? Keep posting, good stuff from all so Far, ta Syeve for the pics of you unit, see now how they mount, unsure as to how / if I have the space availble on mine to do, but the other thing is with the steering guard and the HL winch mounting (Forgetting the Bumpers "Wings") does moving the main winch unit "Up" that much actually affect the approach angle that much, can see the wings being higher make a huge impact, but what about just the centre ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob90 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Another vote for the first four bumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Coooeeee Nige! I'm here! Generally speaking the winch loads end up as a forwards and downwards force at the front mounting bolts and an upwards and forwards force at the rear bolts, assuming a straight pull and a winch mounted feet down. These forces get into the chassis through four or six bolts depending on the bumper. Of course, how many straight and level pulls do you do? And there's the rub - the forces transmitted during challenge winching are complex and highly variable. No simple analysis is going to give you a reliable answer. I would base a design on an existing bumper that has demonstrated itself to be sound in most conditions. Of course, you will then have to add the 300% HFH factor to all plate thicknesses, but I am sure you can manage that calculation . Personally, the First Four mount will be the basis of my design (thanks for the pic Steve, most helpful!) with Devon stylee wings stuck on the outside - tube just isn't my style don't you know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hmmmmm Just been out for a measure look n think Top line = top of chassis Bottom line = bottom chassis I fink winch front face = 6.5" winch HxD = 8.5 " gap bottom tube to top wing on bumper 4" ish moving centre up causes conflict with fans, would need to move out from front to clear or fit narrower unit ? anyone know HxD of a Type R - I seem to think not much different ?? thinking what to do - open to ideas / thoughts / suggestions ? unsure what it would look like if just wings removed - would be a step up in approach angle......... but centre hmmmm keep thoughts info and ideas coming ta Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomG Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Why have the side bits on the bumper? (other than aesthetically) their original function was to protect the fragile stock wings, which is not a problem with the NOR wings. The increased clearance over standard is better for diagonal banks & ditch crossings. Lowering the winch tray will give slightly less approach angle. If the winch base sits on top of the chassis, the winch line is only an inch or so above the top of the chassis (depending on how much rope is on the drum) - is this likely to make that much difference? Also a higher position will mean the winch will be easier to get to if the front end is buried in a ditch. Just my 2 pence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Anyone who's seen Nige's winch or seen the normal result of one of his recovery sessions will know that there is nothing on the shelf which will be up to the job. The D44 bumper does always look smart however its feet forward design isn't easily adapted to your feet down mounting. The basic design of the FirstFour bumper isn't bad, though. I'm assuming you can't push the winch any further back? Are you already at the cross member? If so, then the only option is up I'm guessing the pusher fans are necessary???? Are there any other options you could look at (like pushing the rad back a bit, puller fans, bonnet cowl + fan etc)? As far as bending the chassis goes, if anyone can do it you can. However, if you get the design right then it shouldn't happen..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheeppimp Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 (trimmed a bit ).... does moving the main winch unit "Up" that much actually affect the approach angle that much, can see the wings being higher make a huge impact, but what about just the centre ?Nige I don't think it will make that much difference - the steering guard and chassis rails are still in place - if you can continue that line then you're gonna get the best possible approach angle. But guessing from the photos that would mean moving the winch back. (all a bit of armchair theorising so could be complete codswallop) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Mine... But 1, its electickery...not the Beast 2, Might chop the end off the bumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Oh...and Excuse the bonnet pins Nige..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hmmm 'cuse the rough PSP but it does look better, with or without wings Need some time, and a measuring stick, this is not "Up" a huge about, prob 2.5-3" at a guess I think I might consider chopping off the centre unit I made, then making up new chassis mountings etc and rewelding it on higher a la piccie it may need to come out a bit so I need to work out the before vs after approacj nagles vs Type R dimensions, and if to consider wings or not, still have to finsih them so this will be later after thats done, much thinking and pondering (and maybe more ideas from here ? ) yet Ta muchly to all for so far bed and thinking now Nige Edited to Add as Mr Brock posted whilst I was a typing - if I'd have known "A Day" to do the bonnet slam bar - I may have gone the pins route Kin Fabrication Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I'd just chop the sides off your current bumper I have had a chassis width bumper on my 90 for over 2 years now and the wing bases are still fairly straight. Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Ced had a D44 Winch bumper fitted to his "old" truck, just as Jake is showing in his pic I must say that it is along with the D44 steering guard, the best engineered winch bumper system that I have ever seen that is readily available off of the shelf! Would 1000% recommend one! As far as we were concerned it had NO disadvantages anywhere! Lara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Ced had a D44 Winch bumper fitted to his "old" truck, just as Jake is showing in his picI must say that it is along with the D44 steering guard, the best engineered winch bumper system that I have ever seen that is readily available off of the shelf! Would 1000% recommend one! As far as we were concerned it had NO disadvantages anywhere! Lara. I assume you're cheques in the post I would agree they are nice, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Of course Will, Ced needs more funds for the build Lara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Of course Will, Ced needs more funds for the build Lara Yes, these builds have a habit of getting expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco-Ron Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Right, have thought about this, what i would be tempted to do, is cut a 'V' inyour existing bumper just outside the chassis rails, and then angle the bumper from that point outwards up so that it is lets say an inch or so off the new challenge wings, then reweld it, that way, you protect your nice new (not for long!) wings, and retain something in the way of a bumper......... as you have what looks like quite a large winch, i doubt you'd easily be able to mount it differently without interfering with other things..... like radiator/fans etc...... at the end of the day it depends how far you want to go, if you really wanted to, you could always have two fairleads on the front, if the bar between the winge were deemed strong enough you could have one up there aswell...... and some sort of release on the rope hook to enable simple switching from one fairlead to the other....!! Hope that all helps...!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
callum Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 i'd vote fr lopping off the two ends, you don't need them anymore. alternatively you could go for the raised end look http://www.pangolin4x4.com/pangolin4x4/pro...rs/bumpers.html you just need a middle though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 this is mine its home fabed using a bought winch tray the tray sits on top of the front cross member with two of the winch bolts down through the cross member then four uprights either side of the chassis legs through bolted works for me mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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