Hydraulic VS PTO

[MogLite]

Seems several people here are converting their PTO winches to hydraulic operation

DirtyDiesel's H14 PTO winch in the classified section got me thinking.....

What are the advantages of hydro over PTO ? For me, I'm running an auto box, with PTO, so comparisons against a hydraulic PTO and a PTO would be good.

For me pure PTO seems simpler and therefore cheaper and therefore better, but maybe I'm missing something.

[FridgeFreezer]

The main bugbear of the direct PTO winches I think is the fragility of the operating shafts, small UJ's and bearings that fill with crud.

Hydro - well, JCB's manage OK don't they

It's also easier to run pipes than shafts, and adding a rear winch from the same power source is easier.

[minivin]

I was just about to say what JU said but hay hoo

[FridgeFreezer]

Sorry Rob!

Remembered something else too - with electric valves you can go remote crontrol just like electrics.

[BogMonster]

The obvious advantage to me seems to be what FF says, you can control it with summat other than the clutch....

For me a straight PTO would be no use at all and in fact I'd not even go back to a wired remote, try setting a KittyGripper without standing next to it if you are on your own, there is quite a lot of walking back and forth and swearing.... with it the way it is I hold it and pull it into the ground until the winch stalls in high range (which is usually the spade pretty well buried) then go back, change range, get in the vehicle and drive assist if required.

I suppose it is probably easier to make a pure PTO that can run all day in terms of not needing oil coolers and stuff for continuous operation, which you would with hydraulics, but I think the advantages of a hydraulic one would outweigh the disadvantages?

[Jon White]

Depends on your vehicle, but on some it can be almost impossible to run the PTO shafts satisfactorially. Hoses are a hell of a lot easier to run. However PTO's are more compact and theres alot less to go wrong. No need for coolers, tanks etc etc.

From a pure power point of view I dont beleive there is much in it. From a speed point of view, if the correct pumps are used hydraulic winches can be fairly quick. PTO ones no matter what you do to them are not.

Hydraulic is more complex, with far more to get wrong and to go wrong. PTO is fairly agricultural and so long as you keep the joints greased theres not alot to go wrong.

End of the day you pays your money and takes your choice.

I used to run a PTO winch, but got fed up with the speed of it - it was soooooooooooooooo slooooooooooowwwwwwww...........awesomely powerful however!

HTH

Jon

[will_warne]

Depends on your vehicle, but on some it can be almost impossible to run the PTO shafts satisfactorially. Hoses are a hell of a lot easier to run. However PTO's are more compact and theres alot less to go wrong. No need for coolers, tanks etc etc.

From a pure power point of view I dont beleive there is much in it. From a speed point of view, if the correct pumps are used hydraulic winches can be fairly quick. PTO ones no matter what you do to them are not.

Hydraulic is more complex, with far more to get wrong and to go wrong. PTO is fairly agricultural and so long as you keep the joints greased theres not alot to go wrong.

End of the day you pays your money and takes your choice.

I used to run a PTO winch, but got fed up with the speed of it - it was soooooooooooooooo slooooooooooowwwwwwww...........awesomely powerful however!

HTH

Jon

The other advantage of hydrolic is you can hook up a crank driven pump in place of the PTO one and get drive assist back.....

[madmatt]

Right here is my two pence worth I am relitevly new here so sorry if I tread on any toes! I work for the Environment Agency and we run a fleet of Lrs with all three types of winch on different vehicles and i have operated them all which stood me in good steed for deciding what wemt on my 130!

Winches driven via a PTO shaft are good but in my oppinion they drive shafts are a pain and need regular greasing and cleaning this must be done meticulously to preserve UJ life. The drive shafts can also only be rooted one way usually. Line speed isn't too bad as with 5 gears in the box you can get the winch pulling lightish loads quickly. As saidv before these also need to be operated from the drivers seat.

Hydraulic, Well in my humble opinion the best! I was an agricultural fitter before my present job so I am slightly biased! However the best ones are those run from a dedicated pump off a PTO. The advantages are that if the system is thought out well there are endless possibilities. Also if you have a soleniod operated valve block this can be mounted anywhere and the wander lead socket mounted where you like or better still have it Radio controled this is what i like most about my setup i can stand where i like to winch watching whats happening. Hydraulic hoses are also easier to route than drive shafts though bear in mind they need to be routed and secured properly and make sure they wont rub on anything sharp.

Works hydraulic setup uses a very small amount of hydraulic oil i think the tank is around 10 litres with the motor on tick over it will winch all day without getting to warm and there is no oil cooler. although progress is steady and this would be no good for winch competions.

My set up has a 35 litre hydraulic tank and twin slice valve block one for the winch and one for auxilery hydraulics (log splitter , breaker or drill) I have a large quantity of oil on board as I need to pump at 20-30LPM for the breaker to be effective and i want to reduce heat buyild up as much as possible. so far I haven't needed a cooler.

If you install a hydraulic winch make sure the circuit has a load hold or over centre valve in the circuit.

All just my thopughts on the subject it is very much what suits your use and budget.

Matt

[nas90]

Right here is my two pence worth I am relitevly new here so sorry if I tread on any toes! I work for the Environment Agency and we run a fleet of Lrs with all three types of winch on different vehicles and i have operated them all which stood me in good steed for deciding what wemt on my 130!

Winches driven via a PTO shaft are good but in my oppinion they drive shafts are a pain and need regular greasing and cleaning this must be done meticulously to preserve UJ life. The drive shafts can also only be rooted one way usually. Line speed isn't too bad as with 5 gears in the box you can get the winch pulling lightish loads quickly. As saidv before these also need to be operated from the drivers seat.

Hydraulic, Well in my humble opinion the best! I was an agricultural fitter before my present job so I am slightly biased! However the best ones are those run from a dedicated pump off a PTO. The advantages are that if the system is thought out well there are endless possibilities. Also if you have a soleniod operated valve block this can be mounted anywhere and the wander lead socket mounted where you like or better still have it Radio controled this is what i like most about my setup i can stand where i like to winch watching whats happening. Hydraulic hoses are also easier to route than drive shafts though bear in mind they need to be routed and secured properly and make sure they wont rub on anything sharp.

Works hydraulic setup uses a very small amount of hydraulic oil i think the tank is around 10 litres with the motor on tick over it will winch all day without getting to warm and there is no oil cooler. although progress is steady and this would be no good for winch competions.

My set up has a 35 litre hydraulic tank and twin slice valve block one for the winch and one for auxilery hydraulics (log splitter , breaker or drill) I have a large quantity of oil on board as I need to pump at 20-30LPM for the breaker to be effective and i want to reduce heat buyild up as much as possible. so far I haven't needed a cooler.

If you install a hydraulic winch make sure the circuit has a load hold or over centre valve in the circuit.

All just my thopughts on the subject it is very much what suits your use and budget.

Matt

Thats 2 types what about the third type?

Interesting reading from someone using them for work.

[simonr]

The main problem with both hydraulic & PTO is getting a line speed at which you can assist with a bit of drive to the wheels. You may say that they are just so powerful that there is no need - but I beg to differ - you'll probably just snap the line. Imagine climbing a step - the winch pulls you in to the step, not over it. Apply a bit of drive and the wheels will climb the step.

This consideration rules out PTO for me - and although you might think it rules out Hydraulic as well, there is one bit of technology nobody (that I've heard of) is currently using which IMHO gives you the best of both worlds without going electric.

That is Variable Displacement Pumps (and Motors). These are generally a swash-plate design where you can change the angle of the swash plate which in turn varies the volume/pressure of fluid per revolution.

You would need a cable operated 'throttle' for the pump - but you could adjust the line speed to accuratly match the wheel speed. Some will change the direction of flow when the swash plate angle crosses zero which would give you the ability to 'jog' the line in & out with millimeter accuracy if perhaps you were trying to line up with a punch for example but at the same time could wizz the line in or out at max displacement if needbe.

Why has nobody done this? F@@@@@d if I know! If I had a hydraulic winch - that is how I'd do it!

For that reason alone, in my book, Hydraulic wins.

Si

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Most of the above comments are spot on IMHO inc Si Rs last one re varaible flows.

As many know I have the "thang", and there are 3 drawbacks...maybe not fully covered above ??

1. No Engine = no Winch, same for PTO and Hydraulic.

2. Drive assist - nightmare, just allowing the winch to use its shear power to remove you can be part A.) prob, part B.) is that you sometimes need drive assist to fine tune where you are going.

Drive assist on PTO rod or hyd is a nightmare, but can be done to a minimal degree, often to problem is the winch suddenly being not needed as grip is refound ...then maybe relost, you have to be careful with the cable going tight then slack etc.....for real drive assist the electrics win hands down.

3. Costs and complexity ...... PTO Mech are far far cheaper than PTO hydraulic, period......trust me I know

Nige

[honitonhobbit]

1. No Engine = no Winch, same for PTO and Hydraulic.

And no electric after a very very short time unless you want to splash out for a new motor

[madmatt]

Thats 2 types what about the third type?

Interesting reading from someone using them for work.

Nas,

Sorry the third type used by work is electric, ok we o have huskey's which in my oppinion are the best electric winch but at the end of the day they don't cutthe mustard for a working vehicle!

In reply to:

3. Costs and complexity ...... PTO Mech are far far cheaper than PTO hydraulic, period......trust me I know

Nige I am not sure what a Mechanical PTO setup costs in the real world prehaps you can enlighten me out of interest I am curious to know!, Works are fitted by LRSV and cost an awfull lot of money!

I fitted both my hydraulic circuits and winch all in for less than 1700 quid on my 130.

Matt

[BogMonster]

The biggest restriction for me is the strength of the anchor point, as Nige knows I have tied a couple of knots in the KittyGripper but most of the time an anchor will pull out and this is the real problem. I've had both anchors chained together and moving under load and still needed to drive assist to get the 90 out, when they are set in soft ground there's really very little strength there to retain any type of anchor and the winch power is not the restriction, you need to drive assist to keep the damn anchor in the ground!

Si - so when are you building the Hydraulic X-Winch then? put me down for one anyway, I like the sound of that

[Lara]

I run a 100l/min PTO driven hyd pump + a ZF auxilary power steering pump, this gives me a good line speed and the ability to wheel assist at at sensible speed, and the ability to wheel assist very carefully over rocks etc when you need the winch to go faster than the driving wheels while slowly climbing big steps, I am going to uprate the ZF to a larger displacement power steering pump shortly, for a little more speed on the "finess" pump. (in gear but wheels / PTO hardly moving)

The PTO pump pulls like an express train if needed though. Only draw back is that at anything over a very slow crawl the wheels drive faster, No problem in mud but a little slow on the rocks.

Must say though that I have not often encounted places that wheel assist is absolutely necessary.

As HFH says though it does need careful thought and a fair bit of dosh.

Lara,

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

3. Costs and complexity ...... PTO Mech are far far cheaper than PTO hydraulic, period......trust me I know

Nige I am not sure what a Mechanical PTO setup costs in the real world prehaps you can enlighten me out of interest I am curious to know!, Works are fitted by LRSV and cost an awfull lot of money!

Sorry, maybe this will make a bit more sense....

S5000 S525 or poss H14W PTO Mechanical, prices S/H are around £250-£500

A H14W Hydraulic system complete goes S/H for around £1500

Partly due I think to rareity and demand over PTO mechanical.#

BOTH H14W Mech and H14W Hyd come in new for 110 etc at a stunning £6500+ vat !

My point was

You'll have a jon finding a late Lt230 type Hyd unit complete, and when you do brace yourself it will not be cheap, then they can be a nightmare to fit even when complete, esp if you decide (as I did) to move things about - say like the tank - means new pipes and away you go cost and complexity.

PTO mechanical units complete are more 10 a penny, prices drop vastly and as Jon W says rods and U/Js can be a swine to get to fit, I have done a load of fits of these, none even when complete have fitted without rods being altered brackets / altered made etc but simpler and cheaper to do IMHO ?

Hope this helps

Nige

[kkk2]

I run hydraulic set up using an electric clutch set up driven from the air con pulley on the Crankshart with the Hyd. pump mounted where the aircon goes on a 200tdi, this gives all the strenght of the hydraulic set up plus the ability the drive assist if needs be, a 35 ltr tank and a set of solenoide and off we go.

[B reg 90]

I run hydraulic set up using an electric clutch set up driven from the air con pulley on the Crankshart with the Hyd. pump mounted where the aircon goes on a 200tdi, this gives all the strenght of the hydraulic set up plus the ability the drive assist if needs be, a 35 ltr tank and a set of solenoide and off we go.

KKK2,

Very interested in your set up. Any chance of some information or pictures?? Some questions:

a/. How are you controlling speed?

b/. what is max line speed and line pull? - i.e. are you managing to match the winch speed with the wheel speed.

c/. Are the electric clutches reliable????

Adrian

[honitonhobbit]

KKK2,

Very interested in your set up. Any chance of some information or pictures?? Some questions:

a/. How are you controlling speed?

b/. what is max line speed and line pull? - i.e. are you managing to match the winch speed with the wheel speed.

c/. Are the electric clutches reliable????

Adrian

Seconded

[dollythelw]

Crank driven hydro giving drive assist;

Parker hannifin CP16 pump, electro magnetic clutch, Fenner HTD TDP3 belt.............or a type R Milemarker on 1/2" chain with taper locks

or Huco 6000rpm UJs or Beldon high rpm speed fit prop shaft mated to a direct drive Type 4 clutched Parker pump driven from the crank - 120+ltrs a min and drive assist

or if you wanna be groovey

ring gear driven sput shaft, planetary reduction box onto a dog clutch or electro clutched pump

infinately variable speed;

200bar PRV and a manual 3 way valve - forwards or backwards at what ever speed you want.... £80

dons hat and waits for the rocks to be lobbed

Andy, gimme a shout, you can watch one spinning in a couple of weeks

[MogLite]

Blimey - 19 posts and its stayed on-topic BRILLIANT

and loads of good info, especially about using a winch solo, I hadn't thought of that.

My PTO is going to be enabled by a small air-ram. I could (but I'm not going to) use an electric solenoid to control that, and run a Lodar or similar from there.

As I haven't got an engine in the way between my PTO and winch, I'm hoping the rod runs are going to be quite simple and reliable.

I think I've made the right choice - but reserve the right to change my mind

[FridgeFreezer]

Si,

I spotted those variable displacement pumps a while back but was quietly (and very slowly) plotting

I don't think you need a hand throttle for them, as I understand it (from the ones I spotted) they throttle themselves as pressure increases, flow decreases. In fact they effectively turn themselves off when they hit the selected pressure as the plates move to a neutral position and there is no flow. That means the winch would go like the clappers when the load came off and then slow up as the load increased. Mind you, using the right pump it might not actually slow up that much

[dollythelw]

Ahh almost forgot, the dead engine arguement

Toyota MR2 electric power steering pump, dead engine - no problem

[B reg 90]

Ahh almost forgot, the dead engine arguement

Toyota MR2 electric power steering pump, dead engine - no problem

Dollythelw,

Do you know what the flow rate and pressure rating of the MR2 pump is??

Ta,

Adrian

[simonr]

I don't think you need a hand throttle for them, as I understand it (from the ones I spotted) they throttle themselves as pressure increases, flow decreases. In fact they effectively turn themselves off when they hit the selected pressure as the plates move to a neutral position and there is no flow. That means the winch would go like the clappers when the load came off and then slow up as the load increased. Mind you, using the right pump it might not actually slow up that much

John, you are quite right - but you can get both types.

The 'Auto' variety would be good and behave more like an electric, however the finess of control you could achieve with a 'manual' would be useful.

Jez, what is the capacity of the electric PAS pump? (pressure & volume/rev). This might be good for an emergancy winch solution - but the efficiency (or lack of it) do not bode well for the amount of power you are going to get from the winch. There was a thread about this very issue a while back.

I have another application in mind for the pump! (There we go Andy - Off thread!)

Si