Kinetic Recovery?

[Unsworth]

Hi all..

Have been watching loads of videos on youtube of Land Rover's offroad. Have seen a lot of "Kinetic recovery action". I understand the pricipal of how it works.. Have also seen these ropes snap aswell!!.

I have been thinking for a while whether to buy a kinetic recovery rope or not?.. Paddocks list this one..

http://www.paddockspares.com/pp/OFF_ROAD/Ropes_and_Recovery/Kinetic_Tow_Rope_-_8_metre_x_24mm_(2_ton_Working_Load_Limit,_12_ton_Minimum_Breaking_Load)_(WEB_EXCLUSIVE_SPECIAL_OFFER).html

Which seems expensive, Yet on the otherhand would soon pay it's self off!. Before I ever used one I would however want some form of training as I am guessing a nice run up going flat out is going to find out the weakest point, Either the "Stuck" motors tow hitch / recovery point or the rope. I wouldnt ever use a Shackle on a Kinetic strop though.. As if it the rop did snap. That 3kg lump of steel is going to give you a headache!.

So are they worth buying or not?. They seem to be successful in the right hands such as here..

Just thinking now I am going to be doing a LOT more offroading / Laning I should start gathering equipment!

Also any tips, Comments or advice etc etc welcome!

[Unsworth]

Paddocks linky not worky!!!

Its Part No. PM691 on their website!.

[Paul Humphreys]

Just to add, a tow ball should never be used for recovery as it is not strong enough.

Paul

[cieranc]

No place for kinetic ropes in professional recovery, and there never will be. They leave too much to chance.

[mmgemini]

Just to add, a tow ball should never be used for recovery as it is not strong enough.

Paul

According to the Land Cruise owners in Namibia The tow ball is the only recovery point to be used...

They didn't like my comments when I said I'd stay if I was stuck if that was their silly idea

mike

[ltwt1981]

we have generally banned the ose of Kinetic ropes for recovery.

Only used as a last resort, better to winch imho.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

we have generally banned the ose of Kinetic ropes for recovery.

Only used as a last resort, better to winch imho.

Yep

IMHO these ropes are F Dangerous even in skilled hands.

Lethal in untrained hands, an accident literally in the making

Time for Mr Chris G8MUD to post his infamous "Demonsatory" piccies of why they are

not the greatest and safest things to use and close shaves can ensue shortly after starting

to use on a recovery...................

Nige

[nicks90]

they are definitely banned in our club - far too risky and much easier to get someone to winch you out.

the forces involved are truely staggering.

[specialbikejames]

I'm definately on the "kinetic ropes = death/destruction" side of the fence, but it has to be noted that they are staggeringly effective.

Lots of people do not have winches, so a kinetic rope is a cheap and very effective option- that's why so many pople use them. I've always been impressed by what they can do anyway. If I didn't have a winch fitted there would definately be one of these in the tool locker to be used as a last resort.

The problem is that people are too lazy to explore the other options.

[andyb]

Cricky....looks like I have to stick my neck out a bit.

I've used a KERR for a loooong time now and not had a problem at all. However....I don't try and use maximum force from the first attempt, I just build up so that the stuck vehicle moves just as I am about to loose traction....minimum kenetic energy. I also refuse to recovery anyone using my KERR if I have the least doubt about the recovery point on their vehicle.

I completely understand the danger of their incorrect useage, but they are not a lot more dangerous than a wire rope on a winch if that is used by idiots. Plasma is a different kettle of worms and it is the only thing that I will fit to my winch. Yes I have both a winch and a KERR.

I also understand why clubs etc have banned their use as it is impossible to police the stupid in that situation.

Finally I would say, that if you understand the forces involved and only use it in a situation where a quick snatch recovery will work then by all mean get and use a KERR. A winch recovery has move control, but is also not without it dangers.

[BogMonster]

I've used a KERR for a loooong time now and not had a problem at all. However....I don't try and use maximum force from the first attempt, I just build up so that the stuck vehicle moves just as I am about to loose traction....minimum kenetic energy. I also refuse to recovery anyone using my KERR if I have the least doubt about the recovery point on their vehicle.

I completely understand the danger of their incorrect useage, but they are not a lot more dangerous than a wire rope on a winch if that is used by idiots. Plasma is a different kettle of worms and it is the only thing that I will fit to my winch. Yes I have both a winch and a KERR.

I also understand why clubs etc have banned their use as it is impossible to police the stupid in that situation.

Finally I would say, that if you understand the forces involved and only use it in a situation where a quick snatch recovery will work then by all mean get and use a KERR. A winch recovery has move control, but is also not without it dangers.

Well said - agree with all of the above ^^^

[daveturnbull]

Yes I have both a winch and a KERR.

Is the KERR in pieces on your work bench as well then?

[andyb]

Is the KERR in pieces on your work bench as well then?

ha ha !! No it is in the back of the Discovery under a pile of canes, very much in need of a wash.

Empty winch tray makes for a good platform for drivers briefings

[GBMUD]

Not sure I can put my hand on the pictures just now. Try a search of the forum as this toipic has been covered before with my pictures uploaded.

Edited: See here

Chris

[freeagent]

Cricky....looks like I have to stick my neck out a bit.

I've used a KERR for a loooong time now and not had a problem at all. However....I don't try and use maximum force from the first attempt, I just build up so that the stuck vehicle moves just as I am about to loose traction....minimum kenetic energy. I also refuse to recovery anyone using my KERR if I have the least doubt about the recovery point on their vehicle.

I completely understand the danger of their incorrect useage, but they are not a lot more dangerous than a wire rope on a winch if that is used by idiots. Plasma is a different kettle of worms and it is the only thing that I will fit to my winch. Yes I have both a winch and a KERR.

I also understand why clubs etc have banned their use as it is impossible to police the stupid in that situation.

Finally I would say, that if you understand the forces involved and only use it in a situation where a quick snatch recovery will work then by all mean get and use a KERR. A winch recovery has move control, but is also not without it dangers.

I agree with everything in Andys post..

In the right situation, with the correct recovery points, etc KERR recovery can be safe and effective - however KERR recovery is not a wonder-cure when you are properly stuck, or hung up on a tree root...

Having said that I wouldn't use one to recover someone else unless I was totally happy with their recovery points, and level of understanding.

Used as a recovery rope, rather than a giant elastic band KERR ropes can be good various recovery situations.. you don't have to put tonnes of energy into it...

[FridgeFreezer]

Judging by his posts so far, Unsworth is pretty new to this game so I would say not the ideal candidate to be using a KERR or judging recovery points. God knows you can do enough damage with a normal rope.

Although Andy is right, for a club there are too many unknowns with any given recovery situation to promote the use of KERRs, in most cases a winch recovery will at the very least be slower & more controlled, even if you still get the same muppets with winches as you do with KERRs and dodgy tow points.

[errol209]

Just for my own interest, if you assume the recovering car hits 10mph, weighs 2000kg and the KER rope stretches 200mm (I've never used one: does that seem about right?) in the process, the attachment points at each end experience forces of 200kN (about 20 tonnes in earth money). I can see why there is an element of danger involved!

[Exmoor Beast]

We have a kinetic rope and I don't think its ever been used.

The first time I ever encountered one was when my old Range Rover was bogged down to its bumper at the front and to the top tailgate on one side at the rear, well and truly stuck. A chap in a V8 Series gave me a tug with a KERR and the old Range Rover popped out like a champayne cork, staggeringly effective.

If you know what you are doing they take some beating, I'm incredibly wreckless by nature but even I wouldn't take any chances with a KERR, anything they are attached to needs to be 100% solid and up to the potential forces involved.

Will

[HoggyN]

IIRC the Army only use kinetic recovery on armoured vehicles.

Having witnessed a rather spectacular kinetic recovery fail at a AWDC event back in the early 80's, I can see why.

[adam300Tdi90]

See

Editted to add: Imagine if an arm got in the way

[Unsworth]

Judging by his posts so far, Unsworth is pretty new to this game so I would say not the ideal candidate to be using a KERR or judging recovery points. God knows you can do enough damage with a normal rope.

Although Andy is right, for a club there are too many unknowns with any given recovery situation to promote the use of KERRs, in most cases a winch recovery will at the very least be slower & more controlled, even if you still get the same muppets with winches as you do with KERRs and dodgy tow points.

I have had land rovers for over three years now, Although I only passed my test 06-11-08. I have covered a few hundred miles in offroad sites and disused quarrys. I feel I am confident to judge whether something is safe to tow from. And I know my Defenders rear towing point is solid, As my main dixon bate has a 2 inch thick 120mm x 120mm plate on the inside of the x-member.

The main worry for me if the towing point on someone elses car!. Becuase afterall if it breaks at their end.. Its going to hit me! And if you are rated at a 15 tonne pull it makes you certainly realise that to break they go with a LOT of force.

After looking into it, I think I'll give KERR a miss. Like I said you cant tell how stong someone elses welding or recovery point is!. There was one circumstance where a Suzuki SJ mate of mine got stuck and wanted winching from his bumper (A mate in his 90 was at hand with a winch).. We ended up pulling his 6mm thick winch bumper off!.. Despite being 6mm thick all round, His mounting holes were drilled far to close to the edge of the plate!.

I like the idea of KERR and would love to try it but feel its an Unsafe method of recovery and from seeing whats read I dont want to take the chance although I am buying a Winchbumper in Septemeber then will get a Winch to suit later so will just wait until I have a winch as I have used winches before and know how to basically use them in a safe manner.

Says it all if the Military only use KERR on Armoured vehicles..

[HoggyN]

The main worry for me if the towing point on someone elses car!. Becuase afterall if it breaks at their end.. Its going to hit me! And if you are rated at a 15 tonne pull it makes you certainly realise that to break they go with a LOT of force.

That is what happened with the accident that I witnessed. A Range Rover was stuck and was offered a kinetic tow by another vehicle, an Austin Champ I think. The tow hitch got ripped clean off the Champ and went through the windscreen of the RR and exited out of the tailgate window, taking off the passenger head restraint in the process. Luckily the passenger had decided, moments earlier, to watch the recovery from outside.

[lrfarmer]

Cricky....looks like I have to stick my neck out a bit.

I've used a KERR for a loooong time now and not had a problem at all. However....I don't try and use maximum force from the first attempt, I just build up so that the stuck vehicle moves just as I am about to loose traction....minimum kenetic energy. I also refuse to recovery anyone using my KERR if I have the least doubt about the recovery point on their vehicle.

I completely understand the danger of their incorrect useage, but they are not a lot more dangerous than a wire rope on a winch if that is used by idiots. Plasma is a different kettle of worms and it is the only thing that I will fit to my winch. Yes I have both a winch and a KERR.

I also understand why clubs etc have banned their use as it is impossible to police the stupid in that situation.

Finally I would say, that if you understand the forces involved and only use it in a situation where a quick snatch recovery will work then by all mean get and use a KERR. A winch recovery has move control, but is also not without it dangers.

i've been using kinetic Recovery for 4 years with no problems

but i don't ever use too much to quickly

See

Editted to add: Imagine if an arm got in the way

to me that dosen't look like a kinetic rope

[adam300Tdi90]

View Postadam300Tdi90, on 27 August 2009 - 05:13 PM, said:

See youtube link

to me that dosen't look like a kinetic rope

Hmm maybe not, although it does look like there is alot of strech.. and he says it is...

[clbarclay]

Just for my own interest, if you assume the recovering car hits 10mph, weighs 2000kg and the KER rope stretches 200mm (I've never used one: does that seem about right?) in the process, the attachment points at each end experience forces of 200kN (about 20 tonnes in earth money). I can see why there is an element of danger involved!

Its not the forces involved that is the problem with kenetic ropes. Most kenetic ropes or straps have the same minimum breaking load as other typical ropes or straps used for recoveries and the extra strecth should reduce damaging shock loads compared to trying snatch recovery with just a chain etc.

The problem is stored energy. A knetic rope stretched to breaking point will have a lot more stored energy than a much stiffer rope/chain/wire etc. and its when this energy is suddenly released that instead of just dropping to the ground, the kenetic rope becomes a catapult. Any weight on the end of the rope such as a shackle or remains of a chassis (or even just thr ropes own weight) becomes a potentially leathel projectile.

Any recovery, even winching with a synthetic rope, will result in stored energy, but the greater the engergy, the greater the risks are.

As I see it the main danger is not the KERR its self, but the people and condition of the vehicles using them. However banning KERR use is far easier to regulate when event organisers have the difficult task of safety to deal with.