Next Defender to have independent suspension

[SteveG]

According to Autocar, normally a reliable source on JLR updates, there will be a new Defender by 2015 at the latest. It's being worked under the name Project Icon and will use current Discovery/RR Sport platform.

Seems a sensible choice to use 'old' platform to keep Defender costs down. I suspect they'll use drivetrains and engines where possible/cost effective too. The Disco/RRS platform is a hybrid monocoque/frame platform.

So from this it's probably safe to assume that it will...

• have independent suspension
  
• Be heavier, especially the 130
  
• Be more comfortable - shock!
  
• Be wider
  

[simonr]

I spoke to someone who worked for a contractor involved in the project who said it's all up for grabs at the moment.

The main options are -

* as above, using the D3 platform

* Indi front with beam axle on rear

In both cases go for a single piece body shell like most modern cars.

His hope was that they were going to do a similar job to the new Beetle, Mini & Fiat 500 and produce something that is unmistakably a defender - but also a modern construction.

I think this could really work. I would prefer the second option - a good compromise between comfort, handling and load carrying / off road.

Si

[BogMonster]

Got a link Steve or was it in the mag?

[SteveG]

Got a link Steve or was it in the mag?

It was mentioned in the mag a few weeks ago and then in last weeks along with all JLR updates. I'll scan page in for you if you want. Here is link to initial news item a few weeks ago...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/243591/

and text...

Project Icon, the long-awaited replacement for the 61-year-old traditional Land Rover, is under secret development inside JLR’s Gaydon design centre and earmarked for a 2012 launch.

The new Land Rover is a relatively simple, steel-suspended workhorse intended also to attract lower-end Discovery buyers. It should hit the market soon after Land Rover’s existing iconic model, the Defender, reaches the end of the road, killed by legislation, and will reach most of the current Defender's 160-odd export markets.

The new Project Icon workhorse is based on the tough, capable but relatively heavy T5 steel platform chassis used for the existing Discovery and Range Rover Sport models, both of which are due to be replaced beyond 2012 by aluminium-based models which are between 400kg and 500kg lighter.

See pics of the Land Rover Defender being tested off-road

Land Rover wants to retain a simple, twin-rail T5 chassis because allows them to continue offering the variety of body styles — hard and soft tops, truck and crew-cab versions – from which Defender buyers can now choose.

The T5 chassis supports a modern all-independent suspension available both with steel and air springs. It is well-known for its sturdiness, but will need its own weight-reduction campaign.

The model will be made in the UK at first, but JLR bosses believe it could soon be made from KD (Knocked Down) kits in big markets like China, Russia and India.

There are no details yet of Project Icon’s engines, but a big four-cylinder turbodiesel like the Freelander’s Ford-PSA 2.2-litre four, or the base Discovery’s 2.7 litre V6 turbodiesel make likely candidates.

Steve Cropley

There's a contradiction in dates with original news item saying 2012 and last weeks saying 2015.

If it's later than 2012, all current new UK Defenders will have to have ABS, ETC fitted as standard to comply with EU reqs

[bill van snorkle]

Honest question,no sarcasm. Does Defender still have a market worth worrying about in 2009, let alone 2015 ? And would an independantly sprung vehicle be a suitable contender in that market sector anyway ? Look at the critisism and buyer resistance Toyota and Nissan got when they were contemplating going to independant suspension on all their working models.Defender has already surrendered large portions of their former market share to the opposition due to downgrading durability, particularly in the rear differential, chassis frame and bodywork areas.IMO the companies refusal to offer proper difflocks and their over reliance on electronics re traction control etc doesn't impress buyers who need tough reliable working vehicles for severe remote area conditions.

Bill.

[Ex Member]

I agree Bill. It is sad if they go down this road. They need to look at Jeep. They managed to modernize the Jeep while keeping the live axles and offer diff locks and low gear standard. Land Rover could, easily, make a much better off road vehicle than they have currently, while making it meet modern requirements much cheaper than the current model. Jeep is making money hand over fist and Rover could make something so much better if they went down the correct path.

I would be willing to bet a few of us could sit down and make the basic design within a week of work for a modern, rugged, off and on road capable truck that would be cheaper to produce and make them a lot of money.

Personally, I don't really believe they have any designers working at LR that are off road knowledgeable. They have a bunch of car designers.

[Ex Member]

I spoke to someone who worked for a contractor involved in the project who said it's all up for grabs at the moment.

If that is true, it will not be out in 2012. You would need to be near prototype stage to make 2012.

[Bush65]

Bill,

I think you are right.

My speculation is; Land Rover will be attempting a lower price version of the Discovery, but not take Discovery sales. The longer wheelbase versions to try and keep what is left in that market. It is necessary these days to design for reduced carbon footprint, so they need to offset the large engines used in Range Rover/Sport by having enough Defenders with 2.2 litre Freelander engine.

[samd35]

well engine wise and reliability they need to improve as we have the new 110 at work with the 2.4 and they keep breaking down and dont run hydraulick PTO's very well compared to the old ones! and if they go for a one piece boddy the repair cost will be much higher wich will turn companys to else were who need working vehicles that are easy to repair!

[soutie]

I don't see the big issue with independant suspension. In military circles the US has just signed an order valued at $2.3 billion for 4,296 M-ATVs, including spare parts and support services with Oshkosh. These vehicles use Oshkosh's TAK-4 independent suspension system as fitted to these plus more than 10,000 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacements (MTVRs) supplied to the Marines and Seabees. This follows on from them using independent suspension on their Humvees.

Oshkosh's proprietary TAK-4 independent suspension system, provides 16” of wheel travel, and reduces pitch, bump steer, and traction hop. They are also retrofitting existing beam axled vehicles with this suspension system.

Now if the new defender has this kind of wheel travel, uses common parts and reduces the cost to us as consumer I would welcome it. However we will have to wait and see.

http://www.examiner.com/x-11005-San-Jose-Auto-Industry-Examiner~y2009m9d30-Not-your-mamas-Hummer--new-Military-All-Terrain-Vehicle-headed-for-Afghanistan--photos--video

[hobson]

I think whatever they replace the trusty old Defender with, it will be a very sad day to see the last of that iconic shape come off the production line...

I know all of the various incarnations made have had their issues, but can anyone think of any vehicle that has done the job it was designed for so well for so long?

[Retroanaconda]

I think whatever they replace the trusty old Defender with, it will be a very sad day to see the last of that iconic shape come off the production line...

I know all of the various incarnations made have had their issues, but can anyone think of any vehicle that has done the job it was designed for so well for so long?

Well put. It will indeed be a sad day, the end of what I consider to be the greatest vehicle ever made

Hopefully in 50 years time people will still treat a Defender the way they view a Series I / II now. A brilliant icon of British engineering killed off by ridiculous EU legislation and political will.

[nicks90]

so landrover are finally admitting defeat and will stop flogging a dead horse and build something that may (and i use the word tentatively) compete with the likes of the Hilux and L200.

its a big market amongst trade and utility companies - and private sector - and the defender just does not compete with them. Indy front, solid rear, powerful engine, decent cabin, decent loadbed, under £20k. Something Landrover have not had in their line up and should have had 15 years ago.

[BogMonster]

Well put. It will indeed be a sad day, the end of what I consider to be the greatest vehicle ever made

Hopefully in 50 years time people will still treat a Defender the way they view a Series I / II now. A brilliant icon of British engineering killed off by ridiculous EU legislation and political will.

+1 here - there is nothing quite like the Defender.

The rice-burning crewcabs have a role in the world - I have one of those too - and while there may be a commercial argument for changing in that direction because that is where the market volume is, it isn't the same class of vehicle by any stretch of the imagination which is why I have one of each. Putting the hideously complicated TDV6 in it would be a disaster as would using the T5 chassis - I guess nobody has bothered to ask any of the markets that run D3s on rough roads, what happens to the suspension and wheel bearings or how long the tyres last with that lovely "knock-kneed" suspension geometry the D3 has, which makes it look like its had a heavy landing straight out of the factory

Shame really as the Puma was in many ways a step in the right direction, changing the bits that needed doing for one reason or another, but leaving the formula largely unchanged.

Time to cherish the 300Tdi I guess, it's going to have to last me a long time but with 11000 miles on it in 3 years I reckon it should do me till I am about due to retire

[Happyoldgit]

I believe this kind of discussion has been covered many a time on various fora. However much of an icon the Defender may be developments in automotive design over the past sixty years means that its no longer acceptable for an ex factory vehicle hard roof to offer about as much protection as a fag packet in the event of a roll-over.

[BogMonster]

True Steve but I don't mind at all if they change the thing from the waist up so it crumples less easily, what I don't want to lose is the bit from the hips down

[q-rover]

I'm not really that bothered, as due to taxes over here on new vehicles

I am in no position to buy a new Land Rover anyway.

So no doubt I'll be sticking with the P38 and just save for a new gearbox and

engine and replace those when the time comes.

[tacr2man]

I dont think Ill be changing my 110 for one , its done me for 23 yrs and should manage another 20 ok , while all my other vehicles keep corroding away.

[bill van snorkle]

I agree Bill. It is sad if they go down this road. They need to look at Jeep. They managed to modernize the Jeep while keeping the live axles and offer diff locks and low gear standard. Land Rover could, easily, make a much better off road vehicle than they have currently, while making it meet modern requirements much cheaper than the current model. Jeep is making money hand over fist and Rover could make something so much better if they went down the correct path.

I would be willing to bet a few of us could sit down and make the basic design within a week of work for a modern, rugged, off and on road capable truck that would be cheaper to produce and make them a lot of money.

Personally, I don't really believe they have any designers working at LR that are off road knowledgeable. They have a bunch of car designers.

Love those new jeep Wranglers and Rubicons. Just how a real 4x4 should look. Quite a few are appearing in LandRover club trials on my property recently. They seem very capable, refined and better screwed together than Defenders.

Not that I would ever buy a brand new vehicle, but I have completely given up on LandRover ever producing a vehicle that I would want to own, and the future may well see a used wrangler or rubicon in our small family fleet.

Bill.

[lrfarmer]

so landrover are finally admitting defeat and will stop flogging a dead horse and build something that may (and i use the word tentatively) compete with the likes of the Hilux and L200.

its a big market amongst trade and utility companies - and private sector - and the defender just does not compete with them. Indy front, solid rear, powerful engine, decent cabin, decent loadbed, under £20k. Something Landrover have not had in their line up and should have had 15 years ago.

if i could aford a land rover 110 5seat pick up i'd sell my L200

[Bush65]

...

Not that I would ever buy a brand new vehicle, but I have completely given up on LandRover ever producing a vehicle that I would want to own, and the future may well see a used wrangler or rubicon in our small family fleet.

Bill.

Apparently the current Defender soon won't comply with Victoria's legislation.

New Victorian government legislation mandating electronic stability control for all passenger cars and SUVs (but not commercial vehicles) from 2011 could spell the end of Defender availability in that state in a little over 12 months.

That quote from this article, which has some interesting comments from Land Rover managing director Phil Popham (while he was visiting Australia), and Land Rover design director Gerry McGovern.

Some interesting experiences with Disco 3 posted in Aulro.com

Hey Guys,

Just joined the Defender club.

Sold my techno crippled D3 TDV6 SE and got into a `08 SVX.

The Disco was not impressed with several out back trips, the latest to Cape York last July.

Got sick and tired of warning lights, beeps, chimes and visits to Alto's to get the thing re-programmed, re-paired and re-sorted over and over again.

The final straw was a suspension fault at "Loyalty Beach" due to air dryer failure. Resulting in the suspension locking it self in normal height and denying the opportunity to take the "Frenchman track, to Chili Beach".

Glad to back to basics, So no more D-3 zone and looking forward to lots of K's in Defender.

Cheers

Wasn’t looking to elaborate on the first post,

But along with the failure of the air drier, The plastic air line between the compressor and the air drier also crack and failed.

Both faults were repaired by Cairns Land Rover Specialists (Who were awesome and I can't speak highly enough of them) who put the problems down to the many many mile of corrugations.

The corrugations also shut down the CD/Radio, centre consul display and sent the trip computer back to miles ???.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed the D3 for the 3 1/2 years that I had it. It was a very comfortable and a capable vehicle and nothing on Cape York, prior to the failures,nothing could stop it, including the “Creb”, OTL and “Gun Shot”.

There in lies the problem. 1000k's of nothing between me and the closest mechanic that could handle a D3.