Brilliant, Good, Great, or just plain snake oil ?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hi All,

A mate who works for a Motor factors has just given me a box of stuff following a move / clear up etc

either old stock, dmaged boxes etc etc, and amonst it all are a few tubes of Molyslip Gearbox protection

Now, I have just had a new Exc Box from Mr Ashcroft, and nice it is too, and I have already changed

the oil from doing 400 miles, and replaced with fresh 20/50 (LT85) and now I am sat looking at this stuff

and wondering....should I shove some in - or is it just snake oil ?

So me question are (in no particular order :

Is Molyslip additive worth bothering with ?

ie what (if anything ) might it do - good or bad

If it is any use, then is this "Use" lost at the next oil change ?

Anything else re the above, good bad, indifferent, etc squeak up

Nige:blink:

[disco_al]

allegedly it's a low friction additive that coats the gears inside the box with molydenum compounds to improve the shift and quieten the box down.

I have read up on a few of these additives before, and found that most people don't recommend putting it in older boxes that use a lot of phosphor bronze components, as it can destroy them.

it makes a similar claim to all the other additives out there - not sure if there is any real benefit to be had, or if it's just in the mind, although the garage next door to us swear by the stuff for noisy diffs.

have a read here

[simonr]

There was a thread - possibly on here, possibly on one of LR4x4's previous incarnations which linked to independent research which showed that none of the oil additives made much difference - Molyslip, Slik50 etc. There is also the argument that if they were that incredible - all decent oil would include whatever magic ingredients they contain.

On the other hand, I used to have a Series 2 which had been treated with Slik50 by it's previous owner. In an off road incident, I gained a big tear in the sump through which all the oil exited. Unfortunately, I didn't notice (the oil light appeared not to be connected) and drove the 30 miles home with no oil. It did get pretty hot - but once the oil had been replaced, the engine did not appear to be any worse than it was before. It went on for another 30k before becoming someone else's problem.

OK, it may not have been the additive that saved it - there could have been enough oil and gunge to keep it sufficiently lubricated - who knows.

I've never used it myself - but I do wonder!

Si

[reb78]

Dont Ashcrofts supply an additive like that to put into their new boxes? Wouldnt have thought they would sell it if they didnt think it would do any good.

On another note, is it normal to change oil after 400 miles? running in i suppose. I've put a recon box on prob 6000 miles, but havent changed the oil yet - is this wrong?

[Ruuman]

I remember a thread on this to, I know of a few guys who have Simmon's experience using slick50 and loosing all oil with no bad effects.

I'd go by Ashcroft's website, the only additive they recommend is the lubegard stuff http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/part_33.html if you do get a bottle read the blurb, apparently it was the first additive to replace the use of sperm wale oil?!?!

My dad had a really poor rebuilt ZF box that shifted like poo and the suppliers bodge fix was to supplier a bottle of that stuff, did improve it a lot until the box let go, but that wasn't down to the additive, just poor workmanship. sigh....

All their weird and wonderful potions http://www.lubegard.com/C-110/Transmission

[callum]

tried molyslip i the gearbox and found it prevented it crunching when cold.

tried the molyslip engine equivalent and found no difference. i'd use the gearbox stuff again, but probably not the engine stuff.

[BogMonster]

I always thought it was snake oil but the fact that Ashcrofts supply (or at least did supply) one of the additives makes me wonder.

Hopefully Dave will be along in due course to comment

[zoltan]

We used a Millers oil with a black moly additive on some Mini dog boxes and there was definitely less wear in these boxes over the ordinary Millers oil. Unfortunately they stopped producing this BM variant of their 20W-50 as it was too much hassle for them to manufacture as they needed to flush their equipment through after making batches and there was not enough take up in sales of the BM oil.

It was appreciably better from a wear perspective than the non BM oil but they stressed not to use it in synchro boxes so I would be wary for this reason alone

[FridgeFreezer]

http://www.carbibles.com/additives.html

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Nige,

You should know better than to ask such a stupid question, however, I fear you have been very economic with the truth regarding the original gearbox failure ….

I heard (know) that you decided to ditch the ARB in favour of welding the rear to give you a permanent spool ………. And then you had difficulty in understanding why your paddle clutch took big chunks from the flywheel and the LT85 offered an objection………

Make up your own minds folks……….I don’t think molyslip will fix this issue

[Aragorn]

Someone welded the pinion to the crown wheel?! That would produce quite an excellent "locked" diff!

I hope that isnt actually HFH's diff!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Ian,

That was a secret that was thankyou mate

We had spoken about the idea of welded diffs, this being my prototype. I was hoping that I was going to

be launching this as a new 'cheap diff lockin'g option of a "Welded Diff" after 31st March next year

now that plans ruined.

Thanks a lot mate for blabbing

Nige

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Nige,

I’ve told you that you just have to publicise it as it is the way forward. That nice Dave Ashcroft has kept us fully informed of his axle development and very popular it is too.

You have done well so far in emulating the Will Warne weld style to introduce a stress relief point within the drive line.

I am guessing that there are many on here that will follow your example for the cheap option to the fully locked diff without the risk of half shaft failure.

Whilst you are fumbling around with the original condom lubricant molyslip, you should also be considering this to bring the engine back to its original 492 ponies.

http://www.americantechnology.co.uk/

[will_warne]

Ian, don't forget that locking the diff this way also massively increases it's strength as it seriously limits pinion deflection.

Nige, even ignoring the evidence I would follow the same line of thinking as Si - if these additives really helped then most decent manufacturers would include it in their oil.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I will be very interested in Dave @ Ashcrofts view, hoping he comes along soon

as I place much trust in what he says / belives

Nige

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I guess Molyslip doesn’t really come under the snake oil label as MoS2 is a known and well documented inorganic compound that comes from the mineral molybdenite. Its lubricant properties are well documented and conclusively scientifically proven over many years.

I think the question is more along the lines of ‘is it beneficial in this application’ …….. from my perspective that answer is probably no and I would be inclined to use a good quality fully synthetic oil.

However, we can’t knock MoS2 (Molybdenum disulfide) as this is used widely in CV / bearing grease and has stood the test of time ……… also it is used in many OEM grease applications.

Here is an extract concerning MoS2 as a lubricant………………

“MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricate and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.[5][6]

Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition.”

Like Zoltan I also used it when racing Mini’s in the early 70’s as in this application the engine oil is shared with the G/box and that caused all sorts of issues, but MoS2 was a way forward and solved many of the problems. However, oils have come a long way since then and maybe it is not required in the oil lubricant environment, but this does not detract its proven usefulness in grease lubricant applications.

[Daan]

I guess Molyslip doesn’t really come under the snake oil label as MoS2 is a known and well documented inorganic compound that comes from the mineral molybdenite. Its lubricant properties are well documented and conclusively scientifically proven over many years.

I think the question is more along the lines of ‘is it beneficial in this application’ …….. from my perspective that answer is probably no and I would be inclined to use a good quality fully synthetic oil.

However, we can’t knock MoS2 (Molybdenum disulfide) as this is used widely in CV / bearing grease and has stood the test of time ……… also it is used in many OEM grease applications.

Here is an extract concerning MoS2 as a lubricant………………

“MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricate and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.[5][6]

Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition.”

Like Zoltan I also used it when racing Mini’s in the early 70’s as in this application the engine oil is shared with the G/box and that caused all sorts of issues, but MoS2 was a way forward and solved many of the problems. However, oils have come a long way since then and maybe it is not required in the oil lubricant environment, but this does not detract its proven usefulness in grease lubricant applications.

Ok Ian, thanks for this amazingly detailed reply. I asked you another question, some time ago, after you stated that power output of your truck was vastly improved after replacing the oils for synthetic oils. I would like to know how much, in a clearly understandble fashion, like swap to oil X in the diff gives Y increase of power, please .

Cheers, Daan

[Mo Murphy]

This molyslip stuff can't be that good, they sell it in Halfords

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Or as my mate calls it "Chav-World" - You have a point tho

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Ok Ian, thanks for this amazingly detailed reply. I asked you another question, some time ago, after you stated that power output of your truck was vastly improved after replacing the oils for synthetic oils. I would like to know how much, in a clearly understandble fashion, like swap to oil X in the diff gives Y increase of power, please .

Cheers, Daan

Sorry Daan .... must have missed that.

I will look out the numbers when I get back home on Thursday (I should still have them somewhere)......... however IIRC it was about 8hp but only when at running temp. I seem to remember that losses at cold were no different. To be fair after the first reasonable run I drove back home (30 miles) and changed all the oils .......... fully synth 75/90 replaced cheap 90 in the diffs, xfer box , and swivels............ Castrol SMX-S replaced cheap ATF in the LT77S ....... also at the same time I checked all the wheel bearings / brakes / Parkbrake to ensure free running........ I cant remember making any significant adjustments. The tyre pressures were checked and made identical to the first run when I got back to the rollers ....... the interval was about a week.

Interestingly Porny has also noticed that some defender drivelines have much less loss than others..........

[Daan]

Ok, thanks for that. If you can achieve 8hp, that is a very worthwile improvement for a very simple mod.

Daan

[disco_al]

This molyslip stuff can't be that good, they sell it in Halfords

but when purchased by the twist top corsa driving brigade from halfrauds, it's got a proven 20bhp power gain when used in conjunction with a hair drier turbo.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Ok, thanks for that. If you can achieve 8hp, that is a very worthwile improvement for a very simple mod.

Daan

Simple maybe......... but not a cheap option ……..

I guess I am as sceptical as you Daan …….. there are just too many variables to be absolutely sure. A week between runs and then you are also relying on the dyno and its operator being accurate, and that is something that I have always had issues with……....however, I would say that from a ‘feel’ perspective the whole driving experience felt a lot smoother and I noticed that it definitely seemed different under coasting conditions, but with regard to the measurements …… … yes, I treat them with some indifference