Challenge events and regulations

[robhybrid]

I didn't say a vehicle had to have mot or tax.....

I think for safety all vehicles should be capable of passing an mot.

I do think that a class 3 car in my opinion should be capable of getting a valid day and night mot and tax. (even more sensible if we do night stages).

Without offending you. Sorry Rob B if I were to organize an event I would not want your vehicle entering against a more standard looking car, say white 90?

A space frame style buggy would not be able to enter class3 but I do appreciate that some can not afford to buy winches and lockers but have the time and skill to build. I would not want to discourage that.

saying that.. as the class system is at the moment I intend on entering in class 3 with a vehicle similar in style to yours if I get round to building it.

[kellyv8]

so the general concencus is if you dont like it piddle off. well i must say that is a wonderful advertisement to encourage new competitors into the sport or even to take the step up to the dizzy heights of your egos i mean competitive level.

[simon_s]

so the general concencus is if you dont like it piddle off. well i must say that is a wonderful advertisement to encourage new competitors into the sport or even to take the step up to the dizzy heights of your egos i mean competitive level.

No, the general consensus is that there are lots of events out there next year for lots of different levels and capabilities... If you don't want to compete in an 'anything goes' event such as the HW find an event with entry restrictions and rules that you like. Simples!

As for encouraging new blood into the sport, I think most people who see the photos, read the reports and think 'I'll have a go at that', are sensible enough to realise that they are not going to jump straight into something at the HW level with a 90 on 205's with a Champion 6000 on the front...

My 2 P's worth.

[carl hurst]

so the general concencus is if you dont like it piddle off. well i must say that is a wonderful advertisement to encourage new competitors into the sport or even to take the step up to the dizzy heights of your egos i mean competitive level.

What type of event are you talking about? Clubman level or howling wolf type, two completly differant sets of rules and one is aimed at entry level.

Carl.

[kellyv8]

No, the general consensus is that there are lots of events out there next year for lots of different levels and capabilities... If you don't want to compete in an 'anything goes' event such as the HW find an event with entry restrictions and rules that you like. Simples!

As for encouraging new blood into the sport, I think most people who see the photos, read the reports and think 'I'll have a go at that', are sensible enough to realise that they are not going to jump straight into something at the HW level with a 90 on 205's with a Champion 6000 on the front...

My 2 P's worth.

if the howling wolf is anything goes why has it got classes surely thats contradicting

@carl i was refering to the howling wolf , meaning the ones that have done the entry level and are thinking about stepping up,its not very awe inspiring is it,not much of an incentive really just alot of bad attitude by the looks of it

let me paint the picture for you.....novice driver that has done the entry level bit and now wants to step up 'to the next level' he sees the hw as the next step so he enters the class that his vehicle fits in but with no chance of being competitive in that class so what does he do ...just carry on having an expensive pay and play or be told if you dont like it lump it cause weve all built cars to take full advantage of the current class structure

[WEBBY]

mot debate, i do not see the point of bolting lots of lights reflectors etc onto a vehicle that is not driven on the road to the even (who is silly enough to drive a challenge motor home from an event when we all no the state they get into thats with out "falling over")

there is enough expence incured with building, running and repairing the truck.

im sure every vehicle starts with day with working brakes and steering and seatbelts and any other vital items needed for the event!!!!!!!!!

as it states an mot is only saying that the vehicle is motable at the time of test so the following day in theory it could be unsafe.

i competed last year in class two on HW and had a bloody great time and met some v v great people and looking at peoples trucks and the long drive home we decided on a plan as js 90 was about dead.

everyone builds a truck for there preference and for the "job in hand" hence we are class three single winch and its a great class to be in and have enjoyed the fight alot more than class two the yeat before.

all im trying to say is you build what you want and drive as hard or as gentle as you wish and do what you want, there are some v v nice vehicles out ther that have evolved and modded to do the job, i think the scrapping of mot is a good move if it does not go on road its more money saved, and you just attempt the class that your happy to and your truck fits in, the spec/mods are there to go by, if your building for instane you do the best you can and do it right save doing it again when it all goes tits, i say hats off to the people who build there motors and with so much passion and thort, and night out in the cold doing it

I didn't say a vehicle had to have mot or tax.....

I think for safety all vehicles should be capable of passing an mot.

I do think that a class 3 car in my opinion should be capable of getting a valid day and night mot and tax. (even more sensible if we do night stages).

Without offending you. Sorry Rob B if I were to organize an event I would not want your vehicle entering against a more standard looking car, say white 90?

A space frame style buggy would not be able to enter class3 but I do appreciate that some can not afford to buy winches and lockers but have the time and skill to build. I would not want to discourage that.

saying that.. as the class system is at the moment I intend on entering in class 3 with a vehicle similar in style to yours if I get round to building it.

[carl hurst]

@carl i was refering to the howling wolf , meaning the ones that have done the entry level and are thinking about stepping up,its not very awe inspiring is it,not much of an incentive really just alot of bad attitude by the looks of it

Dont think this is the case, it seems to be there is a lot of negativaty against people who build out and out off road trucks wether it be through being rich in skill or money, my truck that will be finished later in year will only be able to enter into a couple of event series the way the rules have gone but i have no problem with this, I have worked my ass of to afford the truck so i intend to use it no matter who moans about class, i will be in what ever class the organisers say i am in,

Carl.

[Holyzeus]

it seems to be there is a lot of negativity against people who build out and out off road trucks

Maybe but to be fair there is just as much towards the opposite end of the spectrum. I for one love the one-off's, special build's etc.

They are awesome but beyond the reach of the majority, if your asking the two types to compete against each other the lines are just too blurred

[Ian M]

where are the mods here? this topic is howling wolf 2010, series details!

i now come on here, to find dates, venues and rules, and have 6 pages of pointless gaggle to sort through.

The rules and classes are set for 2010 so if you want a discussion about different classes etc for possibly 2011, you should surely start a new topic.

I take my hat of to Neil, you should really be thanking him. Neil is one of those people that has taken the sport to where its at now!

[carl hurst]

Well a Forum is meant to be a place for discussion

so why not discuss?

[carl hurst]

I take my hat of to Neil, you should really be thanking him. Neil is one of those people that has taken the sport to where its at now!

Totaly agree with you on that,

Carl.

[simon_s]

if the howling wolf is anything goes why has it got classes surely thats contradicting

@carl i was refering to the howling wolf , meaning the ones that have done the entry level and are thinking about stepping up,its not very awe inspiring is it,not much of an incentive really just alot of bad attitude by the looks of it

let me paint the picture for you.....novice driver that has done the entry level bit and now wants to step up 'to the next level' he sees the hw as the next step so he enters the class that his vehicle fits in but with no chance of being competitive in that class so what does he do ...just carry on having an expensive pay and play or be told if you dont like it lump it cause weve all built cars to take full advantage of the current class structure

I give up, you obviously just want an argument.

[kellyv8]

i too agree neil has done a sterling job and is a true ambassador for the sport i,m not knocking that or the one of builds as theyre good to see and inspire ingenuity and creativity

@simon this is a discussion not an arguement although ive just pointed out an obvious flaw in your arguement

[simon_s]

i too agree neil has done a sterling job and is a true ambassador for the sport i,m not knocking that or the one of builds as theyre good to see and inspire ingenuity and creativity

@simon this is a discussion not an arguement although ive just pointed out an obvious flaw in your arguement

Meh. Nit-picking.

Enjoy the rest of your discussion.

[najw]

OK, I think we all just need to step back from this a little bit and get things into perspective.

First off we have run this series, with this class structure, for the last 5 years with little or no complaint about any aspect of it. Fair enough, people have dipped their toes in the water and found it not for them for one reason or another, but I don't think anyone would ever suggest we have an 'holier than thou' attitude, that you 'shouldn't be here' for any reason whatsoever, all are welcome, as AWDC rules dictate.

You may think we 'have attitude', you may think this is an 'up my "Person Resembling a Pink Starfish"' clique, but you are wrong. We encourage and welcome anyone who is prepared to compete at this level'. If Carole doesn't make you feel welcome when you come to sign on then both she, and I, would be disappointed.

What I have a problem with is people who think, with no prior involvement, that they can dictate a class structure that suits them and expect the whole competition to change as a result.

Take Team Gunit as an example, they wanted to get into the challenge scene, they saw all the PR and exposure that came with the HW, so they decided that was the way to go. I'm not going to be the one that turns round and say's you're not really up to it chaps. Instead they come along, absorb themselves into the spirit of it and learn as they go along, having a thoroughly good time, trashing their truck and coming back for more. As opposed to some people who broke an indicator lens and complained that, that was the end of it.

So let's just leave it at that, there will be no changes to the class structure until someone provides a complete and bullet-proof alternative to what we have now.

[FLR100]

Reading some guys posts i think there are alot of people entering comps with totaly the wrong attitude, there is no prize money, no instant fame so why the obsession with winning?

There was only one reason i started entering comps and that was simply for a challenge which is what plays days ect can't offer because you would not normally put yourself and vehicle in the situation you end up in on a comp.

the guys moaning about they could never compete and win will never be happy for the simple reason being that someone will allways have a better truck than yourself and someone will allways be a better team, once you have learnt to deal with that you might start to enjoy competitions a bit more.

It's not the comps that are getting borring it is the constant moaning on various forums from people that don't like it if someone has a better truck then there's.

just my humble oppinion and probaly a bit blunt but there you go!

[Daan]

Right, following the discussion, and the thread going of in a tangent, I started a new one, and moved the comments regarding this subject. Neil is quite right, he is organizing this championship, and does a good job and has brought the sport to the level it is at now, so people go for it or dont. I am the starter of all this chat, and although I still dont see the logic of the class structure, would say all the best to Neil and the AWDC on this years championship.

It is good to throw some ideas around regarding regulations, not only for the howling wolf, but for any challenge event in the uk, because different organizers have different rules, which is not ideal for the sport to progress I think.

Daan

[robhybrid]

good move putting this in a separate post as the original was relating to HW 2010.

I think it is interesting to see different peoples opinions on this subject and interesting to see if people agree or disagree with me.

I think the majority of people enter competitions for a competition I am not sure weather you call that pot hunting or not.

I have entered winch challenge competitions regularly for the last 8 years or so and have over 35 "pots" sat on top and around the cupboard in the living room, a mate of mine takes the mickey and rightly points out that he could easily buy me all of these and more for less than I have spent in 6 months competing, yet I still want to compete to get the "pot"

For me competing is not totally about your driver/co-driver doing better than their competitor but it is about your team(driver/co-driver/vehicle) doing better than your competitor.

If competing was with a team of 2 (driver/co-driver) surely there would be extremely stringent rules for vehicles?

The way I see it having definitive class restraints for vehicles in the the competitions that I enter allows competitors to modify their vehicles to the limits of their boundaries without passing them, is this not innovation?

The nature of human beings I believe is that they will always seek to bend the rules to their limit without breaking them, there always will be the ones that have found the limit of those boundary's without passing them, along with others resenting them.

I would like to think that I compete in competitions knowing the boundaries that I have to work within.

[zim]

I can't wait for the season to start again... then there will be less bickering like this and more posts about how they will improve for the next round

G

[treebloke]

The way I see it having definitive class restraints for vehicles in the the competitions that I enter allows competitors to modify their vehicles to the limits of their boundaries without passing them, is this not innovation?

The nature of human beings I believe is that they will always seek to bend the rules to their limit without breaking them, there always will be the ones that have found the limit of those boundary's without passing them, along with others resenting them.

I think this about sums it for me and very well put.

My truck is as close to the limit as I can get it but still passes its MoT each year and still resembles a Land Rover.

[FLR100]

I think this about sums it for me and very well put.

My truck is as close to the limit as I can get it but still passes its MoT each year and still resembles a Land Rover.

I think keeping comp trucks looking like a land rover will soon become a very rare sight in the comp world, even more so with the likes of affordable space frames like the whitbread buggy,

[bishbosh]

What are people's opinions on how trucks have basically become battering rams and bouncing off trees to get to punches is the norm?

I believe in Europe they have rules that penalise contact with trees - I think this is a great idea for a couple of reasons:

1. It will force teams to take well thought out technical approaches to punches to ensure penalties are not collected, challenges would become far more technically er, challenging!

2. It will enable less "armoured" trucks to be competitive,

3. It will encourage more people to enter as they will see that they don't have to trash their truck to have a good day out and

4. It could even earn environmental brownie points for not mullering trees, which should also get more sites made available and existing sites retained for longer.

The major downside is that the number of Marshalls would have to increase to ensure all vehicles were under scrutiny at all times.

Opinions?

[FLR100]

What are people's opinions on how trucks have basically become battering rams and bouncing off trees to get to punches is the norm?

I believe in Europe they have rules that penalise contact with trees - I think this is a great idea for a couple of reasons:

1. It will force teams to take well thought out technical approaches to punches to ensure penalties are not collected, challenges would become far more technically er, challenging!

2. It will enable less "armoured" trucks to be competitive,

3. It will encourage more people to enter as they will see that they don't have to trash their truck to have a good day out and

4. It could even earn environmental brownie points for not mullering trees, which should also get more sites made available and existing sites retained for longer.

The major downside is that the number of Marshalls would have to increase to ensure all vehicles were under scrutiny at all times.

Opinions?

In theroy it is a brilliant idea but in practise it is near on impossible as there are so many teams that don't really give a stuff about red tape to mark out a route or area let alone not touching a tree

some of the best events i have enterd have had a dedicted marshall for each team but on the downside i hear it can be very borring for the marshall as sometimes you get to marshall some not quite so entertaing teams

[white90]

Mike Woolfe we entered had the dedicated Marshall

it was good for as long as the event lasted.

rather a lot of marshals required though.

The best event I have done was the interclub last year

with the sections

event damage was quite a lot though mechanical

but body damage was minimal few light lenses.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

ERm,

Its like I've just walked into a room where the agruement then finishes

Where are the new rules then ? - please linky to them please

As for Neil and all the other organisers who give up a huge amount of their free time

to organize, plan, and run these events, unless you've ever done it yourself (I have) then

you will never see the half of it or the effort and dedication that goes into them.

May be worth rememebering when posting, no events = no class isues

Seriously on the last one I organized I was stunned when a entrant came up shook my and other marshals hands and

said "Bloody great Day Nige - thanks all, brilliant, sadly he was in the minority, most think nothing more than paying there

fee shouting at some marshal, and ...Ooooo sorry I'm ranting ;blush;

You get the message tho mehopes

Nige