smallfry Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 What I have learned over the years. The thicker the radiator core becomes, the less efficient it becomes, unless it has LESS finning. Goes for intercoolers too. Those stupid custom car fans with flexi blades do absolutely nothing. Square boxy cowling does not help. Needs to be shaped for airflow like OEM stuff. Better off with one big electric fan with the blades cowled as close as possible to the rad core, with a foam or rubber seal if possible. Fans behind the rad work better than a pusher, which in itself impedes airflow as it is in front of the rad. The need to get the hot air out of the engine bay. With respect, there is too many things fitted trying to solve the problem, and adding more stuff is not going to help, and really, is this engine and its spec the right thing to go mud plugging ? More suited to a race car IMO. Just sayin' 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 9 Author Share Posted August 9 6 hours ago, smallfry said: .....Is this engine and its spec the right thing to go mud plugging ? More suited to a race car IMO. Just sayin' comes into its own off road slab.mp4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 Bit overkill when the front and rear winches are both PTO hydraulic - more than enough for spinning over the 5.2 and occasional use of the Goldfish center winch ….. oh and the fans 🤦♂️😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 On 8/4/2024 at 8:26 AM, Hybrid_From_Hell said: but to remove the impeller and fit one of my restrictor plates and remove the thermostat - I used the biggest in the set at 22mm being the maximum you should consider using to avoid cavitation - which will damage engines) Nige - is this restrictor in the water path or am I misreading this? Having just rebuilt the JCB engine (a 4 pot 4l Perkins 1004.4) I have been astounded at the sheer physical size of things to keep it cool. I know it's not a tuned V8 and only designed to run at sub 150hp in turbo form but it is designed to run at that power 100% of the time 24/7. I also appreciate it's a diesel compared to a petrol but they need to stay cool even more. My setup in the 2CX is NA and without engine oil coolers (that is an option) so it about 65hp. The outlet of the water pump is circa 2". The rad, which is 3/4 the size of a Land Rover bonnet, and about 2-3" deep is made from copper. Basically designed to cool things as quickly and as much as possible. It has a simple belt driven fan with a shroud and that's it. If you had a higher spec engine then the engine oil cooler gets added pretty much straight away. Just look at the size of the water pump top right - outlet of rad is circa 2-3" into the lump and then cools the block via the port on the timing cover and thermostat is top middle of the engine. The two additional coolers are transmission oil and hydraulic oil. For size comparison those tyres are 12.5x80/R18s so about 38" tall and that front chassis plate / cross member is inch plate. To me this dinky little 65hp engine's cooling system piddles (well maybe gushes is a more appropriate word) all over the Rover V8 system even before you start adding restrictions. That's before you get into the sheer size of the engine - the sump on this thing weighs more than your block which will have a notable effect on cooling. Yes it's a more industrial style engine but the point is they're designed to run at maximum power 24/7 so it's worth noting a few things. Consequently this little 2CX will quite happily sit digging all day running flat out stationary at maximum power in 30°C ambient temperatures which is more than can be said for the operator. The point of all that - I'd be looking at water flow and whether it's shifting things about appropriately. A small amount of sludge in a rad can make a massive difference. If you can't get the heat out of the block then no amount of airflow around it is going to help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 The restrictor replaces the stat, which will flow a lot less than the 22mm restrictor plate - though to be fair these plates are more when you are wringing every last rev out of the engine down the back straight of a local race circuit rather than in a mud plugger where high engine speeds should be rarer and less prolonged. The cavitation happens around the pump - it needs something to push against. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 As you have removed the engine coolant pump and replaced it with an electric one that isn't linked to engine speed do you think you could also do away with the restrictor plate? Might be worth asking the manufacturer of the pump? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 23 minutes ago, jad said: As you have removed the engine coolant pump and replaced it with an electric one that isn't linked to engine speed do you think you could also do away with the restrictor plate? Might be worth asking the manufacturer of the pump? I was pondering the same thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 No The process is that you take the water pump off and cut away the impeller, I needed to keep the water pump as a unit due to the serpentine belt etc, but in real terms with the impeller off its does sod all. Then you remove the themostat. Issue with a thermostat is again due to flow, the gubbins inside the thermostat housing works doing what its is supposed too, but all get in the way of water Now, you have nothing to pump the coolant around the system, so hence the EWP, I went for the 150 version. This controls the flow rate and thus temps, it does this via a programmable controller, I sent target to 82 degrees and an alarm (you can op in or out of) to 100 degrees The controller shows the temp by lights on a 5 degree band from 80 to around 100 I think, alarm is all lights go red and flash Now, the advantage of the EWP is it is NOT engine driven / dependent.... you can be super F overheating hot and at tickover - the EWP will be at maximum, or, you can be at 5000 RPM and the EWP on tickover etc, and everything in between. The other huge bonus is post heat cooling - many high spec engines suffer when they are hot, you stop and engine water pump drops but temps rise, on EWPs, this doesn't happen (see above) and huge bonus you can program it to run (I have 4 minutes post ignition off) and it will carry on working as though the engine is running even when its not so you don't get heat soak Hope the above makes sense Nige 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 I think the question was more do you still need the restrictor now you have an EWP? It controls the speed/flow and shouldn't be configured to cavitate... So is the restrictor now necessary? Agree with mechanical pump of course. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Exactly. I knew the rest 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: I think the question was more do you still need the restrictor now you have an EWP? It controls the speed/flow and shouldn't be configured to cavitate... So is the restrictor now necessary? Agree with mechanical pump of course. Apparently yes as it will have cavitation without on “full chat” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 1 hour ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said: Hope the above makes sense Perfickly. Although if you have a capable cooling system to begin with then you don't need to pump around more at idle . Just saying... Although that's all to be said for an engine that's been designed as such, for one that's taken an existing design and pushed it to its limits then I guess you're into playing these silly games. Maybe it's simply time to throw a lump in there that's designed for such, cue @Bowie69 suggesting a 3UZ-FE which from a quick Google shows very similar figures to a JE 5.2 but in stock form before you start tinkering with it. Then again there's too much money tied up in this lump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Find it strange that they would design a pump that can run fast enough to cavitate when they have no idea what engine/system it is being run on! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 Just now, Ed Poore said: cue @Bowie69 suggesting a 3UZ-FE Well yes... like I said to you before, if the lump in LGT expires in a bad way at some point a 1/3UZ seems an obvious starting point for more grunt. The 1UZ is still probably the most overly-engineered engine for a LR I can think of, lovely thing, and unless you are chasing hot hatches at traffic lights then far more than adequate power for a daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 A thought regarding the mechanical pump. In standard form, it centrifuges water equally (hopefully) to each bank. If impeller is removed could it be that one bank is getting less cooling ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 11 Author Share Posted August 11 4 hours ago, smallfry said: A thought regarding the mechanical pump. In standard form, it centrifuges water equally (hopefully) to each bank. If impeller is removed could it be that one bank is getting less cooling ? Nope, the EWPControls the entire flow around the coolant circuit these units are superbly good at what they do as engine RPM and EWP flow rates are no longer linked plus less restrictions in the system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 1 hour ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said: Nope, the EWPControls the entire flow around the coolant circuit these units are superbly good at what they do as engine RPM and EWP flow rates are no longer linked plus less restrictions in the system I think what @smallfry is suggesting is that the flow may not be evenly distributed at the old pump housing with the impeller no longer there and functioning. Nothing to do with how much the electric pump is able to flow. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 I would be surprised if anyone ever performed the fluid dynamics on such an old engine with or especially without the impeller.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Have you powered up each electric fan individually and made sure they are pulling or pushing in the correct direction? I bought a puller for my 109. The box said puller. The instructions were for a puller. The label on the fan itself was for a puller. It wasn’t a puller. It was only after reversing the polarity that it worked correctly. I should have smelled a rat during its installation, having needed to flip the rotor on the spindle because the blade camber was inverted… If you have any incorrectly labeled fans fitted, they will be fighting the others, and that would give the low speed overheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 11 Author Share Posted August 11 Yup all fans are as should be I think some perps are not quite getting the update road use normal or f hard even hot day engine fan and maybe 1 x spal now and again off road / green lanning - often same off road worked really hard at high rpm low box etc engine and maybe 2x spals now and agsin ofg road absolutely buried probably top wheel or near deep on mud prob winching and hard engine use then and only then all 4 until out it’s the last situation that was an issue - but as is often the case with me that’s what the 90 spends a lot of it usage time in that gloop 😂 And that’s possibly a big part of the issue - 35 simex lockers long travel suspension and near 350 bhp this goes into and sometimes out of gloopy situations that wouldn’t otherwise be the case … translation of that is when this idiot really gets in a proper mess and stick - he’s seriously stuck 🤦♂️ at my age u should know better but then again my mental age says go for it 🤦♂️😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Time for some portals and bigger tyres then... Or tracks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 I think he's just discovering why all the challenge guys run rear rads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 11 Author Share Posted August 11 20 minutes ago, Ed Poore said: Time for some portals and bigger tyres then... Or tracks I looked it a few years back they bring there own issues and none are the perfect answer - I have the axles fairly well sorted my osnntablocked pegged big bearing pinion conversion hd 4.75 CWPs hd pans upgraded brakes 300m shafts and CVs stazworks double headlock rims and tweaked suspension (I am a huge believer of having wheel on ground is as essential as lockers) gwyn Lewis super wide angle custom pros (superb quality) and hydro assist …so I’ll stick with what I’ve evolved tbh I get proper stuck enough 👍🤦♂️🤦♂️😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 11 Author Share Posted August 11 5 minutes ago, elbekko said: I think he's just discovering why all the challenge guys run rear rads Yup it was a strong option I looked at had that on the old hybrid from hell tvr engined V8 nightmare of plumbing but yes it worked - but so does this solution plus I have the centre winch and spare wheel on back oh and the train horns 🤦♂️😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 I don’t think anyone has missed the update, more thinking of things which have possibly been missed. I don’t know the layout of the rover v8 cooling passages but the comment on flow with the EWP is a valid one and should be checked. Flow is only any good if it’s going the right way. If it’s missing, even partially, one bank then that’s not good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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