Is towing caravans really that difficult?

[hobson]

I've towed plenty of caravans and big trailers about and never had an issue, i think a lot of the problem is that even on a new driving license you can tow a fair size caravan with absolutely zero training, and a lot of people are told in dealers "yeah they're easy to tow, just hook it up and it's like there's nothing there!" they're hardly going to jeapordise a sale asking if the person is safe to tow one.

driving an empty box on wheels at high speed with any side winds is asking for trouble, but i see plenty of people this time of year doing it.

Car drivers not towing are naughty too, i've had some real fools take huge risks overtaking me on double white lines and on bends just so they can do an extra 10mph, - which is more annoying when you catch them up at the traffic lights a mile down the road.

So are they difficult or dangerous? nah, as long as you use that rarest of traits these days - common sense!

[plasticbadger]

I hasten to add that towing in France at 70 mph is legal and I'm not condoning speeding in the UK. Having recently been booked in Holland for exceeding their 90kph towing limit I do now keep my speed sensible. My comments were only meant to display that other types of trailer when correctly loaded seem safer/easier than caravans.

[landroversforever]

I would have also thought that boats are significantly more aerodynamic than a caravan!

[ThreeSheds]

Apologies in advance for a somewhat rambling post...

<... ...>

Caravans are designed with one purpose. To be towed.

Being a professional cynic - especially when it comes to corporate motives, I would have to say that - in my humble opinion - caravans are designed with one purpose - to maximise profit.

A little aside: I work for a large bank whose avowed corporate purpose is "to server our customers better" The thought of my company doing anything that isn't motivated by maximising share prices or director's remuneration, makes me laugh like Lord Flashhart: Aha haha hahaaa!

But my point is that, as was mentioned in an earlier post, the caravan is designed to sell. The towing part of the design will in some cases be pared to the bone in terms of just getting past the regs and keeping component costs to a minimum. On the plus side - I don't doubt that there are caravan companies out there who pride themselves on producing good towing vans, and they are to be praised, so how about a few postings of good makes/models here? (Even though no doubt any 'van can be turned into a towing nightmare by incorrect loading/driving...)

Another little aside: A few years ago I was being driven along the A9 North of Perth ( a good dual carriageway) by my brother-in-law, and he pointed out that the up-coming downhill left bend 'is a bit nasty' when towing. He explained that, although the bend looks innocuous enough, it is down-hill and tightens so that the unwary find themselves going a little too fast into the lower part of the bend and if, instead of gently easing on the brakes, they are applied suddenly, there can be disastrous results. He had barely finished saying those words when, around the bend we sighted a car (on one side) and trailer (upside-down) and a ton or so of logs all strewn around the verge and a police car just pulling up... Nice day, good road, driver doing the speed limit (probably - that road is stitched with speed cameras), local driver (who drives logs a long way?) and still he got caught out... So... (as mentioned in an earlier post) even with everything in your favour, you should still drive with extra care and attention and leave more in reserve when towing.

Again - apologies for rambling post

Roger

[ARMYBOB]

during a discussion at a bbq yesterday, a woman there was shocked to find she didnt have a licence to tow anything! but i can drive a car!, ignorance is no excuse,

her licence was new enough she can only drive a car or a milk float!

unbelieveable, caravans have their uses but people dont quite understand about loading nose weights stabilizers etc etc, you should have to attend a course to tow a caravan or anything else for that matter, most i have a sankey, most people dont realise you have to lock the pin when reversing to prevent you putting the brakes on, it is an annoyance however if you dont do it your brakes fail and then at 50mph on the dual carriage way you realise why you might want brakes.

i've been driving trucks and stuff with all manner of trailers for 14 years now, right up to towing 70 tonnes of Challenger main battle tanks down main road whilst your own tank weighs 60 tonnes! the principle is the same for everything just the size changes.

which validates my point, i had to learn to tow tanks, and trucks and trailers, so why dont people have to learn to tow a caravan? the driving trucks also included loading strapping down etc.

most of it is common sense however that seem in quite short supply sometimes

[Range Rover Blues]

Crikey, some of the replies on this thread make me worried

I've been towing for a couple of decades, I'm also a qualified driving instructor and have taught B+E. Of course I'm going to say that all drivers should take a test before they are allowed to tow. Well actually I don't completely agree with the law as it stands, but it is a step in the right direction.

There can be many causes of towing "mishaps" ranging from poor maintenance to reckless driving. Any trailer, coupled to a car, is a fairly complicated thing form an engineering point of view, made moreso if the towcar is not primarily designed for the role.

Unlike an articulated lorry, a trailer towed behind a car can have a direct influence on that car because it connects way behind the rear axle, there are experimentaly derived formulae that relate the sizes and lengths of such things as rear overhang, towball height, car wheelbase, trailer wheelabse, trailer length, track etc as well as such things as the height of the CofG, spring stiffness, tyre pressures, speed and air resistance. Most of the effects would be obvious to the majority of us I'm sure but there are one or two oddities that can catch some people out.

One of the common issues for example is a trailer snaking. The trailer swings side to side like a pendulum, for that to heppen there has to be an exciting force and a restoring force. the resoring force is mostly from the tyres, the exciting force can be wind buffeting, road surface or some issue related to the various dimensiuons of the outfit, or driver error. No outfit will ever go out of control without some sort of input, it can't happen, that's basic physics.

What makes an outfit difficult to handle is when an exciting force coincides with a natural frequency, this creates a harmonic and the distance the trailer swings will increase out of control whilst ever the exciting force is applied, however small.

Like with your wheels, some damping may be enough to keep the oscillation under control, but relying on a stabiliser to control a bad trailer is a mistake.

Sometimes though you might change something thinking it makes it better and it won't. tyre pressures for example will make the tyre stiffer, but this raises the natural frequency of any oscillation that involves them and this can make things worse. Likewise noseweight, my LSE likes a heavy nose but if you throw too much load onto the towball of a lighter car the suspension won't be able to cope on a rough road, the up and down pitching can then translate into a sidways movement if the road has a camber or potholes.

As I said it's a very complicated subject, there are a few basics.

Tyre pressures, don't over-inflate the steering wheels, the noseweight of the trailer can actually reduce the front axle load. Pump the rear tyres up and those on the trailer. On a twin axle I put an extra 5psi in the rear axle of an awkward trailer, it makes it handle like a longer trailer. Always be guided by the owner's handlbook.

Try to put as much weight as you can in the towcar, as far foreward as possible/sensible and ahead of the back axle if you can (behind the alxe it adds to any snaking) Avoid the roofrack if you can, keep the weight low (rear footwells are great if they are empty)

Keep tyhe weight in the trailer on the floor and above the axle, take stuff out of the gas locker if you have to. Check the noseweight and keep it to 7% unless the towbar/coupling hitch prevent this.

Keep the nose of the trialer down, or level, NEVER up. Mostly you don't get the choose the hitch height of the trailer.

Keep the towball as close to the axle as you possibly can, a couple of inches can make a huge difference.

Service and adjust the trailer's brakes, the amount of the trailer's weight pushing on the towball is very important if you want to stop quickly and under control. Check the tyres, they should be no more than 6 years old and if the sidewalls are mishapen, crazed or scuffed badly they need replacing even if the tread looks new. Caravn tyres suffer form UV ageing, madw worse by the lack of use.

Choose a sensible towcar. The thing that limits the weight a manufacturer can stamp on the chassis plate is how much weight the car can pull away uphill when fully loaded (often effected by engine size) rather than matching the weight of the car and trailer.

Improve your driving! there are loads of things you need to think about which don't normally effect you when driving solo. Sidewinds, stopping distances, turning circle etc.

Take your time and plan ahead.

[nicks90]

having towed a variety of caravans and trailers over the past 12 years, i can definitely say the manufacturer has alot to do with the vans towing stability!

We currently have an Abi marauder and it is a lovely van to tow. get the weight over the vans axle and the nose weight right and it tows like a dream. many a time in the discovery i looked at the speedo and thought "oops, slow down!!!". The Eldis we had before was a nightmare, same vehicle, same length van, almost same weight... never ever towed right, which is why we sold it!

Same experience with horse boxes, although you have the added problem of a large horse moving about in it! But unladen, i found the ifor twin axle very twitchy compared to the equi-trek.

as has been said earlier, maintanence is vital. How many vans and trailers do you see that probably only get used 2 or 3 times a year? i would put money on most of them not being serviced at least once a year. Brakes partially seized, brake actuator on the hitch not working properly, lights doing a discoteque impression etc etc etc. shocking.

[landroversforever]

Dad commented when we went from an Abbey Piper to a Bailey Pageant Moselle that the Bailey towed perfectly. Much more stable and less affected by the tramlines on the motorway.

Bailey work with, I think, one of the Bristol universities and do a lot of research on the stability of an outfit. At one of the Caravan shows the had a a ~10th scale model on a treadmill type thing. The trailer was basically a stick frame with adjustable weights, it was amazing to see how the tiniest of movement in the weights had such a great effect on the snaking.

[M&S]

Brilliant reply from Range Rover Blues, and made me realise just how wrong I got it when towing the fire engine back from Ireland. I wish I had read that before I went.

I think I need a drop plate as my towbar does sit quite high and most trailers I use point nose up a touch (just a little bit) Not been a problem with lighter loads (up to 1-1.5t) but I think this and the top heavy weight of the fire engine (nothing I could do to change that) is what caused me a very long and scarey 6 hour drive home

I don't tow very often but I shall look out for a drop plate at the autojumbles.

Thanks again to RRB, made it very clear and simple to me.

[Guest]

A little off topic but in a towing vain and as some people have said I am building a caravan I thought I should ask it here... I am not worried about towing as have towed may and varied trailers over the years and have an HGV licence and would echo many of the comments above about knowing how to react if something goes wrong driving to the road conditions, and making sure that you ensure the trailer is in good condition.

As many of you know I am Currently building an Overland Trailer built on a Sankey chassis, I am nearly there with the trailer and when fitting all the bits I have been careful to balance the weight thinking about the on-board water tanks where the roof tent is and have kept the trailer very well balanced (slightly nose heavy) with the options of moving weight around to allow for empty tanks etc, I thought I had covered all of the C&U regulations with regards to lighting and breaking systems etc, however reading this thread got me thinking and then doing some research on the web people talk about the "legal requirement" of the nose weight of a trailer. Although there are lots of "it's a legal requirement" type statements especially around people trying to sell you measurement devices but I can't actually find a government statement the nearest I got was this DFT Linky but no mention about nose weight requirement.

Jason.

[landroversforever]

I think with nose weight, its about setting it up right to tow nicely, but also not exceed the car manufacturers limit on nose weight (Taking into account that most stuff in the boot will count as nose weight).

[disco_al]

some very valid points being made in this thread - maybe worth adding to the tech archive as an information section???

having been taught by my dad to tow trailers within weeks of passing my test, i like to think i'm pretty good at it (complacency is not a good thing, i know), but even the best can be caught out by the slightest thing - a passenger talking, kids in the back arguing, momentary lapse of concentration after spotting a rather nice looking pedestrian.....the list goes on.

i have seen numerous cars/caravans on their sides or embedded in the central reservation - one of the hotspots seems to be the downhill section approaching bristol from the south (before the Geordano services heading north) and also the flat section heading south, just before weston, where there are alot of side winds from the coast.

experience counts a long way to being able to tow properly and safely - speed is usually a factor, as is being too heavy on the brakes, causing the inevitable jack knife situation - lot's of people seem to forget that whilst larger trailers (over 750kg) have got brakes, they are never going to be as good as the brakes on the tow vehicle.

i was alwas taught that there are only three ways out of a snake situation - speed up and hope it pulls out, slow down gently, without touching the brakes (use the gears to avoid sudden weight transfer - same as getting a blow out on a car) or wait for the inevitable. 9 times out of 10 i prefer the slow down gently option.

I think with nose weight, its about setting it up right to tow nicely, but also not exceed the car manufacturers limit on nose weight (Taking into account that most stuff in the boot will count as nose weight)

all approved towbars should have the nose weight etc displayed on a plate mounted on the bracket - something that will cause a few headaches come MOT time in the near future, as tow brackets and electrics are being phased into the test

[SPendrey]

But I have been caravaning with my parents since before I was born and have obviously grown up around them.

Ross,

Most people grow up around their parents, not always I agree, but mostly.

Scott

[Phil B]

Towing a trailer is 50 in national speed limit and 60 on dual carriageway/motorway

Nose weight and level is a big key, but I'd say weight (lack of or placement of within the structure) and centre of gravity is key player with charabangs, if you think its just wood f/glass and alu, and most the weights prob on oneside or halfway up, which leads to not allowing for side winds.... the cattleshow whore swift is a beaut to tow luckily buri can't say the same for a mates newer one, it's a dog

[mmgemini]

HELP

My daughter would like to take the trailer test.

So far all we can find is the test fees.

She's driven a trailer on L plates. Quite good I'm told.

Now she would like to know how she goes about the test without spending loads of money. If somebody can talk to her about it I'll PM a number for her.

[Retroanaconda]

Mike,

I asked a similar question a while back and got some good advice here:

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=62383

[Range Rover Blues]

You commented that she has towed a trailer on L plates. Just in case anyone is not aware, you can no longer acompany a learner in B+E (or D1) unless you have passed the test and held the licence for 3 years, grandfather rights no longer extend to teaching a learner.

Noseweight. I'm not aware it's a legal requirement beyond ensuring that the outfit is safe and well loaded, specific values are left to the manufacturer's to calculate.

The Caravan Club has sponsored research by the Uni of bristol (I thInk) and bailey to research factors effecting trailer stability. they recomend the noseweight be 7% of the trailers loaded mass. On a heavy trailer this can exceed the coupling head (female socket for the ball) capacity, even on big trailers I'm surprised this is only 100Kg or on some cars the manufacturer's stated nosewieght. This includes any limits on towing equipemnt fitted, eg the towball, bracket or if you have a shocklink.

It is an offence to exceed either of these limiting noseweights because it is unsafe loading and exceeds C&U regs. Sadly a lot of big cars still have crappy noseweight allowances (my sister has been looking at newer towcars and lots of them are cack) for example the Ford Cougar (not sure of the name) has only a 60 or 70kg noseweight.

All older LR products will handle 150kg nose, sadly newer towballs are rated at only 100kg as is my shocklink so I load my LSE to 100Kg and as the 'van is twin axle I check this with the 'van level and the tow hitch at the normal height for towing. With a twin axle a lot of weight shifts if the nose moves up and down because rubber suspension is quit stiff.

[cjmt]

You commented that she has towed a trailer on L plates. Just in case anyone is not aware, you can no longer acompany a learner in B+E (or D1) unless you have passed the test and held the licence for 3 years, grandfather rights no longer extend to teaching a learner.

This seems to be an area of lots of confusion! My OH also wants to learn on a post 97 licence. I can find the section of the DVLA website that says grandfather rights no longer apply for D1, but there is no where I can find (despite lots of searching) that says the same for B+E. Could you point me to something official that I can show her??

Many thanks,

Charlie

[Superpants]

For those of you who haven't already seen it, 'The Towing Code' gives a lot of useful information and is jointly published by the National Caravan Council, the Caravan Club and The Camping and Caravanning Club. It is a bit of a shameless plug as I was one of the authors on the previous issue, in a previous job.

The towing code

The scientific basis for this was a series of studies and a couple of PHDs on towing dynamics from the University of Bath

[M&S]

Mike, there is a test centre at Darlington (at the vosa depot), there are always plenty of instructors about there if she pops up on a weekday. The cafe across the road also has info/adverts for local instructors. As far as I am aware she will need to use the instructors vehicle. There is also an extra "walk around" test/theory that she will need to do. Can't be of much more help than that, but if she gets to Darlington there's plenty of info (where I did my PSV test)

[Mike Brownlie]

Just reading this thread and although I have passed a towing test its not needed for all caravans.

B+E is when the train weight exceeds 4250kg with a vehicle of MAM 3500kg.

This is where people need to read the DVLA website because;

A Ford Escort with a MAM of 1800kg can could tow a trailer/caravan of 1500kg (if manufacturer book states) giving a train weight of 3300kg which does not require the B+E entitlement.

A defender 90 has a MAM of 2400kg so a trailer of 1100kg could be pulled with no B+E entitlement.

A defender 110 has a MAM of 3050KG so a trailer of 750kg could be bulled with no B+E entitlement.

Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Whereas

the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

Towing caravans

As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.

[mmgemini]

This seems to be an area of lots of confusion! My OH also wants to learn on a post 97 licence. I can find the section of the DVLA website that says grandfather rights no longer apply for D1, but there is no where I can find (despite lots of searching) that says the same for B+E. Could you point me to something official that I can show her??

Many thanks,

Charlie

I renewed my liscend last week. It syill has B+E anit.....

However the way I read the post although I have B+E I can't sit beside a learner as I haven't passed my B+E test.....

Martin

We can't find a phone No for Darlington.

The way we read it Darlington is closed now at Boldon ???

[M&S]

Well it was open a few months ago, but maybe closed now

This is the address for the station, they have the VOSA testing, MOT's etc there but also driving tests run from the same place.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/DG_10011277

[orangebean]

So, does this look like an appropriate combination? Spotted just now opposite my house and yes, it really is loaded up with camping gear.

[landroversforever]

That doesn't look too bad. As long as the trailer isn't too heavy and is loaded correctly

Saw a Mk1 Clio towing a massive trailer tent yesterday... that was not the most stable outfit I've seen