Wireless winch controller

[Tris Cocks]

Hello

Im about to enter my final year of uni doing a degree in electrical and electronic engineering, as part of the final year everyone needs to make a project rather than a dissertation.

For my project ive thought about making a wireless winch controller that is capable of controlling both the front and rear winch (with the possiblity of a center winch). I am also thinking about having the ablility to display the voltage of the batteries and possibly the curent that is being drawn by each winch with a LED that comes on if too much current is being drawn so that the user knows they should double line the pull reducing the strain on the winch.

Im starting to put some ideas together for what i may need to achieve this project and am thinking about a Hall effect sensor to measure the current for each winch, and the lecturer has mentioned about either using bluetooth or wireless for the controller but im not completely sure which would be better.

any advise would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Tris

[MrKev]

Well, I would personally avoid using something like bluetooth for this type of application, however, I quite fancy seeing a mobile phone used as a bluetooth winch controller, with all the telemetry in the mobile phone's display... Not as nice a feel as some proper buttons, but convenient.

Kev

[mickeyw]

Would have to be one of those JCB/Sonim/Landrover everything proof ones though. Wouldn't want to take my phone with me when doing challenges.

[simonr]

I too would avoid Bluetooth unless you have a lot of data to send - which you don't.

A multi-channel controller which will operate 3 winches plus freespools would be useful. There are plenty of pre-built data transceiver modules available which can be used to send and receive serial data. If the remote and the vehicle have the ability to have a two way conversation, knowing things like the current (which also tells you the winch is operating) and the motor temperature might be useful. Battery voltage would be nice too.

Data Transceivers available here: http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/ As well as other places too.

There is a chap on eBay who sells LCD Modules (of which, I've used several) including this one: ByVac Electronics

This one is a colour touch screen - but more importantly it has a BASIC programmable Microcontroller built in, which could talk directly to the data Transceiver. The touch screen gives you the flexibility to add as many channels as you need with 'soft' on screen buttons and add interlocking so for example the freespool button vanishes if the in/out buttons are pressed and only re-appears when the motor current drops to zero. Likewise to prevent in & out at the same time.

You also have the ability, as the connection is two way to display 'Out of range' on screen when the remote stops receiving data from the vehicle. Make the vehicle respond to no data by switching all the relays in to a pre-defined state.

The display is high quality enough to show 'meters' on screen for current, voltage, temperature, drivers seat dampness etc.

Although this turns an electronics project into an embedded programming with a little bit of interfacing - that's the way eleccy eng has gone!

A fully user programmable remote opens up many possibilities such as controlling your hydraulic rear steer - even to make the truck fully remote control! Very handy for those terrifying side slopes!

The vehicle end is just an identical transceiver with a microcontroller to code the serial. There are lots these days with a few analogue and lots of digital I/O ports. Connect the I/O's through a buffer/relay driver chip to a cluster of relays.

Being programmable, its application extends far beyond just 4x4's.

It could actually be quite a cool project! I might even build one myself!

Si

[Dave W]

I built a wireless one a few years back based around some modules that include their own rotating access code, similar to an alarm fob. Range was very good and was pretty reliable. The controller was built into a "chunky" waterproof box in the hope it would be less likely to get lost.

LPRS are a good source for suitable comms link components...

http://www.lprs.co.uk/

I made the mistake (in hindsight) of trying to keep everything at the receiver end as small as possible and used some PCB mounted relays to control the winch. These turned out to be unreliable and caused the project to be put on the shelf until I got another round tuit.

[FridgeFreezer]

You need to think carefully about safety - if the thing loses signal or is subject to interference, you don't want it winching someone's arm off or setting fire to the car by turning all the solenoids on at the same time. Also, an "emergency stop" button that kills everything & requires a reset from the operator is a very good idea.

Farnell are touting some interesting ARM-based RF modules at the mo:

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/displayproduct.jsp?SKU=1879378&ICID=i-f4bf-00003154

There are loads of similar modules out there in all flavours from discrete AM/FM to bluetooth & WiFi, with varying levels of processing power to go with. I'd pick something that's popular and has plenty of support - free IDE, code examples, etc. (the STM32/ARM boards are being pushed heavily, PIC's and Arduinos are a bit noddy but well supported).

Really it's down to what bits & how much you are expected to develop yourself, there are 4-channel (& more) RF remote modules all over eBay for pennies that would get the basic job done with zero effort and minimal cost... but of course, that's zero experience gained and nul points scored.

[western]

My Lodar wireless winch control does the job, frequencies have to be in a certain band too & approved by OFCOM.

note these from my units installation sheet.

Waterproof to Ip65

To comply with Directive 95/54/EC the equipment should be inoperable when the vehicle is moving [-- under it's own power]

EN 301 489-3

R&TTE (1999/5/EC)

Safety Low Voltage Directive 300.683

EMC 89/336/EEC ETSI 300-220 v1.1.1

95/54/EC Not applicable (conditional that equipment cannot be used when the vehicle is in motion)

FCC Approval Granted

Spectrum 433.9MHz F1D (EUROPE )

418.0MHz F1D (UK & USA)

Please note that this certificate only covers Lodar

8000.pdf

[LandyManLuke]

Sounds like a cool project.

Just a small point, touchscreens are good for configuration, etc, but absolutely rubbish for control. To use a touchscreen you pretty much have to look at the screen when you press it. This is not good when you should be watching the winch and what's going on, not the screen.

The safety issue is a very valid one, a heartbeat, or possibly connection info from the transciever modules is a must.

Going back to the boring bit, will you get more marks for designing circuits, or writing software? Also, you won't get good marks for spending all your time developing something for a landrover, rather than actually writing up the project. With something like this it is very easy to get distracted from what you actually need to do to get a good grade.

[landroversforever]

My Lodar wireless winch control does the job, frequencies have to be in a certain band too & approved by OFCOM.

note these from my units installation sheet.

Waterproof to Ip65

To comply with Directive 95/54/EC the equipment should be inoperable when the vehicle is moving [-- under it's own power]

EN 301 489-3

R&TTE (1999/5/EC)

Safety Low Voltage Directive 300.683

EMC 89/336/EEC ETSI 300-220 v1.1.1

95/54/EC Not applicable (conditional that equipment cannot be used when the vehicle is in motion)

FCC Approval Granted

Spectrum 433.9MHz F1D (EUROPE )

418.0MHz F1D (UK & USA)

Please note that this certificate only covers Lodar

What do you do when you're using the remote and drive assisting?

[mickeyw]

If I'm driving and winching I find the dash mounted switch far easier to use. It stays put, also I can brace my hand on the dash for good control.

IMO the time you would want a wireless controller is when setting out the line, or respooling after use.

Also useful if you are winching your Landy up a dam, like in that advert for the LR Ninety from many years ago. Far preferable to being in the truck in that situation

[simonr]

Just a small point, touchscreens are good for configuration, etc, but absolutely rubbish for control. To use a touchscreen you pretty much have to look at the screen when you press it. This is not good when you should be watching the winch and what's going on, not the screen.

I partially agree with this. I use a touch screen to control my mill & lathe without too much problem. Your fingers remember where on screen to touch. However, the emergency stop button is still a big red plastic button to punch when it starts going bad!

I think by providing a plastic cover for half the screen with cut-outs to guide your fingers to specific locations could by just about as ergonomic as real buttons. I've bought one of these displays to make a 'control wand' for the mill allowing you to change feeds & speeds on the fly. I had figured on making a clear plastic cover with slots cut out for virtual sliders and a circular one for a virtual knob. With some carefully written software you can make the control more precise when you move your finger slowly than if you move it fast - so you can use it for precise positioning as well as rapid traversing. Because you can change the display under the cut-outs, the buttons can change function depending on the situation. It will still have a mechanical stop button though!

The safety issue is a very valid one, a heartbeat, or possibly connection info from the transciever modules is a must.

I'd kind of covered that by saying to use the conversation to detect when you are out of range. Display a message to that effect on the remote and make the set on the vehicle return to a default set of relay states - a safe state (which could, but is not necessarily all switched off).

Going back to the boring bit, will you get more marks for designing circuits, or writing software? Also, you won't get good marks for spending all your time developing something for a landrover, rather than actually writing up the project. With something like this it is very easy to get distracted from what you actually need to do to get a good grade.

Making something generic is probably better - though having a ready made application as an example of it's use is also good. Firmware blurs the distinction between circuits and software a little. There is probably sufficient traditional electronics in interfacing, EMC and safety interlocking. I assume, like for me, he has to give a presentation of the project to a board? If you can put on a good show, and the thing you are presenting looks good and actually works - it goes a long way.

For mine, I built a thing for recording digital audio on video tape (before DAT appeared, which dates it a bit). I used a finite state machine built out of an EEPROM to control the thing as there were no Microcontrollers at the time. For the presentation I had the head of dept recording his voice on to an old Betamax video (Sony C7) and then playing it back. I think this was more engaging than most of my peers presentations - and I received pretty much full marks for it. Having something cool to show them that can be demonstrated working with a bit of audience participation is a winner.

Obviously things have moved on - but I would think that a project which includes both would be preferable as in industry these days you are likely to be using a bit of both in all but the most specialist companies.

Si

[western]

What do you do when you're using the remote and drive assisting?

I don't, let the winch do the work, if it's well stuck then double or triple line with pulley blocks.

[simonr]

I don't, let the winch do the work, if it's well stuck then double or triple line with pulley blocks.

That's not always possible. What about when the winch is pulling you in to a step or tree-trunk? Or when you're getting to the top of a slope & it's pulling you into the slope, a little bit of drive gets you over the top? No number of snatch blocks is going to do anything other than damage. You may be right in an ideal world - but in reality-land, drive-assist is sometimes the only way.

Si

[Tris Cocks]

A multi-channel controller which will operate 3 winches plus freespools would be useful. There are plenty of pre-built data transceiver modules available which can be used to send and receive serial data. If the remote and the vehicle have the ability to have a two way conversation, knowing things like the current (which also tells you the winch is operating) and the motor temperature might be useful. Battery voltage would be nice too.

There is a chap on eBay who sells LCD Modules (of which, I've used several) including this one: ByVac Electronics

This one is a colour touch screen - but more importantly it has a BASIC programmable Microcontroller built in, which could talk directly to the data Transceiver.

You also have the ability, as the connection is two way to display 'Out of range' on screen when the remote stops receiving data from the vehicle. Make the vehicle respond to no data by switching all the relays in to a pre-defined state.

Although this turns an electronics project into an embedded programming with a little bit of interfacing - that's the way eleccy eng has gone!

Si, I hadnt thought about using a touch screen as the controller but it sounds like a good idea, as my first thought was using some switches and a display for the meters. The only issue ive got with programming is that i havent done any but hopefully if there are some sample codes about it shouldnt be too hard to adapt any existing codes to suit my needs. although i understand electronics it isnt my strong point as up until the final year of the degree ive been doing the Heavy Current route at a partner college and have been put on the light current for the final year which has put me and a couple others at a bit of a disadvatage, so i will probably be back with questions once the project starts.

You need to think carefully about safety - if the thing loses signal or is subject to interference, you don't want it winching someone's arm off or setting fire to the car by turning all the solenoids on at the same time. Also, an "emergency stop" button that kills everything & requires a reset from the operator is a very good idea.

There are loads of similar modules out there in all flavours from discrete AM/FM to bluetooth & WiFi, with varying levels of processing power to go with. I'd pick something that's popular and has plenty of support - free IDE, code examples, etc. (the STM32/ARM boards are being pushed heavily, PIC's and Arduinos are a bit noddy but well supported).

Really it's down to what bits & how much you are expected to develop yourself, there are 4-channel (& more) RF remote modules all over eBay for pennies that would get the basic job done with zero effort and minimal cost... but of course, that's zero experience gained and nul points scored.

The safety issue if a very valid point that i had overlooked while thinking about ideas for a project. for the emergency stop button do you think its a good idea to stop the winches quickly by briefly operating the winch in the reverse polarity to stop the over run or would it do more harm that good?

The projects that were made last year ranged from a robotic hand that was controlled by sensors placed on the fore arms, too goal line techonolgy that consisted of an infra-red beam that set off an alarm when the beam was broken, so with regards to the amount of development that i can do there is no limit but the more that i can develop the project the better as long as i prove that i can make engineering decisions and have reasons to back up decisions.

The safety issue is a very valid one, a heartbeat, or possibly connection info from the transciever modules is a must.

Going back to the boring bit, will you get more marks for designing circuits, or writing software? Also, you won't get good marks for spending all your time developing something for a landrover, rather than actually writing up the project. With something like this it is very easy to get distracted from what you actually need to do to get a good grade.

What do you mean about a heartbeat? something similar to a button that must be pressed every 90 seconds like the system that they have on trains or am i barking up the wrong tree?

as far as im aware it is possible to achieve the same marks for both programming and designing circuits. Althought the basic idea has been thought around a product for a challenge truck it could i think that there is a lot i can write about the project with lots of egnineering decisions, safety, research and development.

What would be the best way to control the relays from the remote? If i was to look into programming what is the best programme to look at?

Cheers for all the help so far,

Tris

[LandyManLuke]

What do you mean about a heartbeat? something similar to a button that must be pressed every 90 seconds like the system that they have on trains or am i barking up the wrong tree?

It's a software term for one bit of code checking that another bit of code is actually running/updating. You could look for the change in status of a bit every 500ms for instance, or check that a count ( a byte value for example) is changing. 'heartbeat' or 'watchdog' are common terms.

[mickeyw]

I don't, let the winch do the work, if it's well stuck then double or triple line with pulley blocks.

I think there are different technical requirements for self recovery vs recovering another vehicle.

Drive assist can be far quicker than re-rigging the cable when the winch has near stalled, if it'll work on that occassion.

In fact further to my earlier comment, I would think recovery of another vehicle is an ideal time to use a remote control. It enables the user to have a better vantage point over what he is recovering.

[elbekko]

The only issue ive got with programming is that i havent done any but hopefully if there are some sample codes about it shouldnt be too hard to adapt any existing codes to suit my needs.

That's pretty much a bad idea.

If you can do logical thinking, you can do programming. It takes a little bit of getting used to, but of course in the embedded world you'll be doing lots of memory management etc, which is a tad more complicated, but not too bad.

I'll tell you now that modifying existing code will be a lot harder than writing it yourself and fully understanding what you wrote. Not to mention that it's properly stupid to use code you don't fully understand when it comes to stuff like winching, where small bugs can lead to mechanical damage and/or serious injuries.

You could keep it extremely simple and use an Android phone as your controller, and connect to the winch by bluetooth or wifi. This takes care of the interface bit, which will be 100% a pain in the arse to do if you're doing it with a touchscreen and a microcontroller. There are plenty of microcontrollers that can handle the car side of it, and you'll basically just be setting output pins based on commands you're receiving (or unsetting them if no heartbeat is present).

On the topic of the heartbeat - do it frequently. You'll have plenty of bandwidth, so do it every 200ms or so. Personally, I'd do it by sending the last command over and over again, and replying with the data you want to show on the screen (amperage, ...).

[FridgeFreezer]

Si, I hadnt thought about using a touch screen as the controller but it sounds like a good idea,

I have to say I'm not keen on the touch-screen idea for a rugged controller for use offroad. If you're running round in the mud & rain with winch gloves on you don't want to be rubbing grit into your iPhone screen to try and make a winch work. As a quick solution / proof of concept there's a lot to be said for the smartphone route as it gives you one end of the setup ready-made with wireless & display & processing & battery all there. There's a Google hardware development kit for Android which is based on the Arduino so that could be a very short cut, in fact probably far too short to be worth any points but potentially quite useful to study what's involved & how they've done it.

The safety issue if a very valid point that i had overlooked while thinking about ideas for a project. for the emergency stop button do you think its a good idea to stop the winches quickly by briefly operating the winch in the reverse polarity to stop the over run or would it do more harm that good?

I'd think you just want to kill everything dead, some winches have brakes which kick in once power is removed so hopefully most would stop of their own accord.

What do you mean about a heartbeat? something similar to a button that must be pressed every 90 seconds like the system that they have on trains or am i barking up the wrong tree?

What you describe is a "dead man's handle" which is similar but not the same (although well worth looking into as a conecpt). A heartbeat/keepalive/polling system on the RF link means the two devices send regular messages back & forth even when nothing's going on to verify that the link is still up. A watchdog is again similar and if you're using a microcontroller you'll need to implement one to reset the device (to a safe state) if the software crashes for any reason.

What would be the best way to control the relays from the remote?

That depends what the remote is really. Assuming you have a microcontroller of some sort doing the talking, you'll need a driver circuit to handle the current required to fire the relay, and also to handle the back-EMF when it disengages (flyback diode etc.).

If i was to look into programming what is the best programme to look at?

That rather depends on what you're programming. PIC and Arduino devices have their own set of tools which are well supported, most microcontrollers have an integrated development environment you can download for free, programming is usually in C or C++ and there's usually some example projects to do basic and not so basic stuff.

Given the questions you're asking I think you need to spend a bit of time reading up on electronics & microcontrollers to get a flavour of how it all works.

[landroversforever]

Programming wise, once you can work one language, you can pretty easily transfer the skills to another. TurboPascal is a free (or was, not looked recently) for writing the pascal language... Pretty intuitive, and can then use knowledge in other languages. There are probably other, better, programs and languages to choose from... that's just the one I studied.

[Cynic-al]

For the safety bit i guess you could go with the dead mans handle like the ABB robots etc have, ie you have to hold a switch half way in, all the way and it assumes your clenching as your being crushed and stops, not at all in and it assumes its too late, you've already died so it stops and waits for the next operator to be hired. As for the none function when the vehicle is moving, perhaps only allow this if there is a driver in the seat. Sense their weight, when the seatbelt is engaged or a hand on the steering wheel? Otherwise it will only let you winch in/out when its not moving? I guess the definition would have to be in neutral as its going to move when you start winching and the handbrake would be off if you wanted it to move. What if it applied the foot brake when winching with noone in the drivers seat for when your recovering someone else? You could also go with one real in/out button but a touch screen that allowed you to determine what it was controlling for simplicity.

For the overload protection you need to add something to calibrate for each setup. Garage doors do it by having you open and close them a few times so that it can work out the normal load then adds a few percent to define the i've hit something limit. I guess on a winch you'd have to put something in that asks the operator to stall the winch, it monitors current then knocks a few percent off to set the maximum limit.

For the freespool it would be nice to have an independent indicator of its state as I find they can be pretty unreliable.

What would be cool, for your project if not for the real world, would be a program function that spooled one winch in as it spools one winch out. It wouldn't be sufficient to just put one in reverse and one forwards as they would both be on different wraps of the drum, so you would have to have some way of measuring line tension. Load cells on the mounts? A little OTT? Maybe motor current? Problem is this only works when the motor is running so you would either have to time the motor on and cut it out when the current went too high / low or go for variable speed? (which would be really cool )

The other thing I would say is keep the controls that you use when playing as simple as possible, when your out there doing it you don't want to be trying to read screens in bright sun light, shield things from the rain or touch tiny buttons with big gloves on.

Just some ideas

[nickwilliams]

My Lodar wireless winch control does the job, frequencies have to be in a certain band too & approved by OFCOM.

note these from my units installation sheet.

Waterproof to Ip65

To comply with Directive 95/54/EC the equipment should be inoperable when the vehicle is moving [-- under it's own power]

<SNIP>

With respect to Western this information is a good starting point but somewhat out of date - most of those standards have been superseded, as has the Automotive EMC Directive 95/54/EC, which has been replaced by 2004/104/EC. However, compliance with this directive is really only a concern for on-road use - if you want to design the system for off road use only then it's the R+TTE and Machinery directives (99/5/EC and 2006/42/EC respectively) which you need to be concerned with.

The starting point for the safe design of this system is likely to be PD IEC/TR 62513:2008 Safety of machinery — Guidelines for the use of communication systems in safety-related applications. WiFi and Bluetooth are non-starters for the reasons already stated and also because the protocols are not suitable for safety related telemetry applications. They also raise some complications with compliance with 99/5/EC although these complications are not necessarily insurmountable. Touchscreens are also a challenge for safety related applications.

Having said all this, finding out about all these rules and (particularly) applying them properly will be a distinct challenge as an undergraduate project. It's not so much a case that this stuff is beyond the ken of an undergraduate - far from it, most aspects are fairly easy to understand once the basic principles have been explained - it's the fact that you only have limited time and you need to deliver a working project to a deadline if you are going to get top marks. Personally, I'd recommend that you identify what the safety requirements ought to be so that you can acknowledge them in the report which you will need to write to go alongside your project, but then basically say that the winch controller you have built is not designed for safety related applications. That leaves you largely free to focus on producing a working prototype in the time you have without using up too much valuable final year drinking time.

PM me if you need any more help with untangling the certification and safety requirements.

Nick.

[simonr]

Good call Nick!

Si

[Tris Cocks]

Nick, thanks for the offer, once im back at uni and have had a word with the lecturer i will probably be in touch.

Ive heard people mention C+ and C++ programming before and that it is reasonably simple to pick up, Can anybody recomend some good reading?

[LandyManLuke]

If you're starting from scratch, both in terms of C and programming in general, I would recommend 'The C Programming Language', It's co-written by one of the guys who actually developed C in the first place.

See here for more info. Some may say it's too basic a starting point, or too old school, or outdated, but it's a very good start in terms of explaining fundamentals that apply to pretty much all languages, such as logical assignment and comparison, repetition and selection structures etc.

[Ed Poore]

If you're starting from scratch, both in terms of C and programming in general, I would recommend 'The C Programming Language', It's co-written by one of the guys who actually developed C in the first place.

See here for more info. Some may say it's too basic a starting point, or too old school, or outdated, but it's a very good start in terms of explaining fundamentals that apply to pretty much all languages, such as logical assignment and comparison, repetition and selection structures etc.

I'd contradict that if you're not very experienced in programming - 'The C Programming Language' is a reference book rather than a tutorial. I love the book (although everything is committed to memory now). However, since I didn't learn C first-hand (I knew about four other programming languages prior to C) then it was a concise guide and needed little else.

More for the OP:

People have covered most of the bases here about various concerns about safety etc but one area that does need attention is the power supply side of things. You can buy off the shelf stuff that deals with buck conversion but just make sure the ratings are appropriate because the electrical systems in vehicles are horrendously noisy. A very worthwhile read is this application note: http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Application_Notes/an9312.pdf, the main point to highlight is that if your winch motor stalls then you could see the battery voltage plummet and any regulators you have need to be able to deal with this.

Another point to highlight is that the winch I have (a cheapo Champion thing but does what I want) switches about 8A through the wired remote and thus you any MOSFETs you have to switch those currents (easy to source from RS and Farnell but not "bog-standard" transistors. Pay attention to wire size as well since this is where most things fall down, particularly important as I'm also toying with the idea of building my own solid-state controller to replace the solenoids. I say toying, I have the design but deciding whether to shell out and buy some MOSFETs at ~£50 a pop. Reckon I can build the MOSFET control for up to ~300A for <£200 but we'll see....

If you want to make sure you comply with all the necessary laws for automotive use (not particularly applicable in winching applications) then I can dig up some documentation I had when I did my final year project (was improving fuel efficiency through intelligent control of the alternator).