ejparrott Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 There must be more than that! LR4x4 Landyzone Onelaughhaveit land rover addict Devon 4x4 Land rover net Defender 2 forum Innovate 4x4 LRO Disco3 Thats just off the top of my head Orrp Ollr .... Landy Owners Club Series 3 club Series 2 club Series 1 club 101 register Severn Valley Leafers Series 3 and 90/110 club I'm not in favour of blockading London either...I don't think it creates the right impression at all. It sort of worked for the tanker drivers, they got what they wanted, but they deliver a commodity that the world can't seem to live without now. We're 'only' trying to look after our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 So "worst day scenario" and it comes in to law how long do we have before we have to scrap all our vehicles? Will we be offered perhaps a balloon or a goldfish for the scrap like the Rag and Bone man used to give for old mangles? Don't even joke about it, good chance you will get absolutely nothing, you will be allowed to own the vehicle but not keep or use it on the road. It is possible but unlikely you might get offered the book trade in value for a standard vehicle of that age, modified parts etc would not be taken into consideration. This isn't hypethetical, this is exactly what they did when the banned pistol shooting, you were required to hand in your property (you would go to prison if you didn't for illegal possetion) and told you might get the trade price unless you could prove it was worth more (not easy when it would be illegal to sell or own so not a lot a value). When exactly you got any money is an open question I handed in several thousand pounds worth in 1998 and am still waiting (at the time of the act an estimated 40% of claims from the SLR ban in 1988 were still outstanding some of them still are now). Quite a lot of the kit I didn't hand in for the money they were offering so is still sat in my loft, anyone want a reloading press and all the kit to make your own ammo?, which by a gap in the law can still be sold and owned completely legally with no form of licence, go figure!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Any word from the press on this yet? I don't mean an inch square with 30 words, where is the headlines of motorists having liberties crushed further by a bunch of tree hugging hiipies and a government scared of its own shadow and petrified of the eu!!!! Not seen that one in the sun yet!!!! Clarkson on his holidays? What about Mark Evans? 4x4 mad them two and well known and respected in the eyes of the public too!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Two-Jacks Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Don't even joke about it, good chance you will get absolutely nothing, you will be allowed to own the vehicle but not keep or use it on the road. It is possible but unlikely you might get offered the book trade in value for a standard vehicle of that age, modified parts etc would not be taken into consideration. This isn't hypethetical, this is exactly what they did when the banned pistol shooting, you were required to hand in your property (you would go to prison if you didn't for illegal possetion) and told you might get the trade price unless you could prove it was worth more (not easy when it would be illegal to sell or own so not a lot a value). When exactly you got any money is an open question I handed in several thousand pounds worth in 1998 and am still waiting (at the time of the act an estimated 40% of claims from the SLR ban in 1988 were still outstanding some of them still are now). Quite a lot of the kit I didn't hand in for the money they were offering so is still sat in my loft, anyone want a reloading press and all the kit to make your own ammo?, which by a gap in the law can still be sold and owned completely legally with no form of licence, go figure!. This is not apathy talking, but if you think of all the custom cars trikes and modified vehicles bikes included it would be a massive amount of vehicles removed and this would surely have a knock on effect to the companies supplying parts, services etc. Before anyone accuses me of polyannarism would the government bring in this amendment knowing full well that many thousands have jobs will be lost? I suppose the comparison to the handgun ban is valid but I would think that more people pre the handgun ban had modified (even if just cosmetic) cars than own hand guns, this is not to make light of your situation of course and I see the comparison. I have spent the last four years messing about with my rather aged vehicle and would be heartbroken to think of it as scrap. Does anyone know the position regarding custom cars in the most draconian state in the EU: Germany are they allowed at all or are they very heavily monitored and face more stringent tests? The hunting ban agree or disagree was supported by the chattering sun-reading masses that on the whole probably think that all foxes wear tweed and appear on tv. This legislation if brought into being will impact a very very large proportion of them and perhaps the government would not have the ground swell of support it had on the hunting ban. I have written to Chris Evans self-proclaimed petrol head (no reply thanks Chris) Tony Baldry MP(No reply thanks Tony) Jeremy Clarkson (No reply thanks Jeremy) Hammond same as, etc etc. I think direct action is playing into the governments hands so a campaign on facebook and twitter would be a start. the more people that know about this the better. Lets pillary these people that set themselves up as enthusiasts. Perhaps they are not concerned as it doesn’t affect them. What you can bet they are concerned about is their public image that after all fuels their fat incomes. Just some thoughts sorry if it turned into a rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Two-Jacks Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Any word from the press on this yet? I don't mean an inch square with 30 words, where is the headlines of motorists having liberties crushed further by a bunch of tree hugging hiipies and a government scared of its own shadow and petrified of the eu!!!! Not seen that one in the sun yet!!!! Clarkson on his holidays? What about Mark Evans? 4x4 mad them two and well known and respected in the eyes of the public too!!! Tried them all no reply....Chris Evans is more passionate about tuppence tax on a pasty than the errosion of freedom. Just puppets thats all they are. Dont expect any help from the "im alright Jack" celebs. I hope chitty chitty Bang Bang chuffing seizes solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I watch the commentary here, I would love for the prime minister to read through our thoughts written in this thread, our concerns for our vehicles, our concerns for our friends who will be facing bankruptcy after it goes to print and enforcement as there will be no market to sell their parts to. The worst of it is that throughout the years we have always been told that Great Britain is a FREE country and we are free as citizens to express ourselves, some of us do it through our vehicles, some through arts and crafts, equestrianism and market gardening, all of these things have major and quite critical thing in common, they every single one of them contributes to the economy, the economy requires people to spend their money, but people must have something they want to spend money on in order for them to spend it in the first place, I kept my old landy for years and years, spent more than £5000 on spares and accessories on it, and then there was the fuel costs, god knows on that one!! Then Excise duty for driving it on the road, insurances and MOTs every year, so that's a potential total of in excess of £10,000 over 8 years of owning an old series 3, and that's just me, one single solitary person. How many of us pay our insurance every year but never claim? How many people own a second vehicle, and spend a bit of cash on it with a little bit of a lift and some nice purposeful tyres, maybe a winch and bumper to add a bit of bling and that's just for a bit of laning and dragging the trailer to the tip to get shot of the hedge and grass cuttings on a Sunday morning? I wonder how far they will research the facts before they put in place this nonsense, it will affect lots of small industries too, and for Britain especially who threw away a lot of its engineering industry, there will be the death of what small manufacturers there are!! Ok there will still be some demand for winch bumpers, someone will still knock up chassis for replacements, but there will no longer be as greater demand from the everyday man who wants build it himself and add features better than factory standard, and what of machine shops where we get the heads skimmed or the cranks ground on what to jo bloggs on the street would otherwise be a scrap engine we spend our money in a business and keep our related industries going. We are the end users for our vehicles but this nonsense will spread further and wider in Britain than any of the politicians could possibly fathom, the revenue losses and rise in unemployment should tell them to steer clear of it!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Two-Jacks Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I watch the commentary here, I would love for the prime minister to read through our thoughts written in this thread, our concerns for our vehicles, our concerns for our friends who will be facing bankruptcy after it goes to print and enforcement as there will be no market to sell their parts to. The worst of it is that throughout the years we have always been told that Great Britain is a FREE country and we are free as citizens to express ourselves, some of us do it through our vehicles, some through arts and crafts, equestrianism and market gardening, all of these things have major and quite critical thing in common, they every single one of them contributes to the economy, the economy requires people to spend their money, but people must have something they want to spend money on in order for them to spend it in the first place, I kept my old landy for years and years, spent more than £5000 on spares and accessories on it, and then there was the fuel costs, god knows on that one!! Then Excise duty for driving it on the road, insurances and MOTs every year, so that's a potential total of in excess of £10,000 over 8 years of owning an old series 3, and that's just me, one single solitary person. How many of us pay our insurance every year but never claim? How many people own a second vehicle, and spend a bit of cash on it with a little bit of a lift and some nice purposeful tyres, maybe a winch and bumper to add a bit of bling and that's just for a bit of laning and dragging the trailer to the tip to get shot of the hedge and grass cuttings on a Sunday morning? I wonder how far they will research the facts before they put in place this nonsense, it will affect lots of small industries too, and for Britain especially who threw away a lot of its engineering industry, there will be the death of what small manufacturers there are!! Ok there will still be some demand for winch bumpers, someone will still knock up chassis for replacements, but there will no longer be as greater demand from the everyday man who wants build it himself and add features better than factory standard, and what of machine shops where we get the heads skimmed or the cranks ground on what to jo bloggs on the street would otherwise be a scrap engine we spend our money in a business and keep our related industries going. We are the end users for our vehicles but this nonsense will spread further and wider in Britain than any of the politicians could possibly fathom, the revenue losses and rise in unemployment should tell them to steer clear of it!!!! Well said that man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Sorry to be naive, So the other countries in the EU that already have periodical tests in line with the proposals don’t allow custom cars or kit cars. Is that correct, that all of their cars and bikes are factory standard? Not fully, but largely, yes. We do have a provision for kit cars, but I don't know how that goes exactly. But basically, the system is: Every vehicle from after 1968 has a "PVG" number, this is a number that uniquely defines that model. Associated with this model is a whole host of info (not available to the general public as far as I know), including engine specs, drivetrain specs, ... For example, the Ninety and the Defender 90 200TDi share the same PVG number, so you can legally put a 200TDi in a Ninety, but not in a Series. Recent changes have made it even more stringent, with the European Certificate of Conformity, which basically means on new cars you can't do anything. A tester told me this earlier this year as I was asking him how I could alter my exhaust to not be dragged off constantly, and he said on my RRC is wasn't really a problem, but on a more recent car it'd have to be bone stock. On the annual test, the testers check if the vehicle complies with this. Of course, they do a half-arsed job of it, so you can get away with quite a bit (larger tyres, lift springs that are black, ...), but don't expect to drive in there with a challenge vehicle and pass the test. Everyone also knows that the test result is only valid up until you pass the exit gate of the test station, there's no way you can claim "the station approved it, so this accident wasn't my fault". That takes care of liability, and also makes the whole system as useless as can be. To give a little example of the uselessness of said test(ers): a friend of mine went to the test with her 90, they failed her because of the shocks being too loose. Tightened them, went back, still too loose (they weren't). Some new rubber pucks, close enough, probably just another tester. What they didn't notice however was the play on her front wheel bearings... you'd think that's a tad more important. As for contacting celebrities: don't expect them to read every email they get. You probably all have your mailboxes at work that are hardly manageable with a few dozen mails a day... try that x100. Probably the best way to contact them would be in person, perhaps someone you know knows someone who goes to the same golf course as Hammond (for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 more forum names who will be affected onelaughhadit.freeforums HOFS? is that a forum? OLLR Just defenders & Series then theyres other types of vehicles too, they all have forums. and in this particular case will be on the same page as us. pistonheads saxperience (LOL) some sort of corsa forums vw forums (although they could be the type to make things worse tbh) classic jag/MG/British Leyland/Ford/Rover/Austin/Riley/Classic trucks/plant equipment/classic tractors etc these groups all have forums too, and will all be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=jon= Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 As for contacting celebrities: don't expect them to read every email they get. Has anyone tried twitter? Clarkson / Hammond / Evans etc are all on it, might be a useful route to bring it to their attention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Dragging ourselves away from the daily-mail world-gone-mad "you couldn't make it up" doom and gloom where Angela Merkel's ninja car-crushing squads swarm through the chunnel to anihilate anyone found in posession of fluffy dice... there are some informed and reasonable comments in this thread regarding the status of this proposal, potential effects, groups affected, and actions that would be most productive to pursue, it would be good to see those given a bit of prominence and perhaps concerted effort to follow the suggestions. Getting all agitated over what might be and brow-beating the nearest MP/MEP with a rabidly misinformed opinion is not going to help, and will take away from the calmer and more reasoned efforts. Picking up the stuff above about forums/groups, I've just skimmed through but has anyone mentioned the bigger political hitters: AA, RAC, BRDC, MSA, FIA, CSMA, IAM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomikey Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Getting all agitated over what might be and brow-beating the nearest MP/MEP with a rabidly misinformed opinion is not going to help, and will take away from the calmer and more reasoned efforts. oops... just sent this. Dear Mr Helmer, I am writing to you about the proposed Roadworthiness Package "Proposal for a REGULATION OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL on periodic roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers and repealing Directive 2009/40/EC" May I start off by stating that I am supportive of keeping all road vehicles safe and roadworthy, including trailers. It is vitally important to keep all vehicles safe, and as an avid motoring enthusiast, I keep my vehicles all in great condition and repair anything that needs repairing as and when it appears. I also agree with keeping testing stations up to date with the relative equipment and training. However I do not agree with the proposal to ban modifications and "retrofits" to any vehicle. I, along with many other UK residents, and voters, feel that Vehicle modification is being seen in the wrong light, as if it makes cars unsafe. Where I agree that a VERY small number of poeple have made their vehicle dangerous through modification, I would like to state that there have been cases where no maintenance, and a complete lack of interest in the vehicle have led to much more dangerous vehicles, i.e. where brakes and steering components have been left unchecked for years at a time, causing accidents. I would also like to point out that vehicle modification, in my experience, usually makes them safer, for example, modifying a vintage vehicle with a non servo assisted braking system, to servo assisted. This modification can only improve the braking efficiency of the vehicle, and would be something that is tested annually at the MOT test anyway. I own a 1978 Land Rover series III, which I have modified to suit my work and commuting needs. I have changed my engine from the origional uneconomical, agricultural petrol engine, to a more modern diesel engine, which has doubled the fuel efficiency, decreased the emissions, and made the vehicle safer to drive, which, whichever way you look at it, can only be a good thing. The proposal seems to greatly contradict this, as if it is carried out, it would require me to remove the efficient, clean engine and replace it with an old, inefficient engine that burns more fossil fuel than 2 of the diesel engines would. Another modification that improves the road safety of my Land Rover, along with many other classic cars, is improved modern Halogen Headlights, rather than the less than ideal origional sealed beam units, which means that night driving is much safer. I would also like to point out that I could not do my job without my Land Rover, as I am a farmer, a building labourer, mechanic, and a driver. My work involved off-road driving, and indeed even off-road towing, which requires a suitable 4 wheel drive vehicle, with suitable off-road tyres and other off-road modifications. However, I do agree with the idea of a Roadworthyness test for Trailers, and Motorbikes, as these are often ignored, and as someone who does a lot of towing, i can say that I keep my trailers, along with my vehicles in top working order, which is esepcially important when towing heavy loads. I would like to end this email by saying that leading road recovery services such as the AA, RAC and Green Flag state that the UK road system is already one of the safest road systems in the EU, and a ban on modified vehicles or retrofits would not change this. A ban on modifications and retrofits would have great detrimental effects on the already struggling economy, as, taking Land Rover as just one example, 90% of all Land Rovers on the road are modified, most of them for a necessary reason such as for work, or safety, or increased economy and efficiency. Land Rover stated a couple of years ago that over 70% of all Land Rover's ever made, since the company started in 1948 are still on the road today. There are also hundreds of UK companies, such as X-Eng, Paddockspares, Gwyn Lewis, John Craddock, John Richards, Britpart, Bearmach, etc. that will all go into liquidation as a result of this legislation. To put this into perspective, Britpart alone employs over 150 poeple, on just their main site, and they also have stockists all over the world, most of them in the UK. It may interest you to see the views of other people such as myself. I have therefore included a link to a forum dedicated to Land Rovers, just one of hundreds, on which this topic is discussed at length. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=78332&st=0 Yours sincerely, etc etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UdderlyOffroad Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Dragging ourselves away from the daily-mail world-gone-mad "you couldn't make it up" doom and gloom... Agreed, but it's necessary occasionally! There is real and lasting resentment accross the EU as no electorate has ever signed up for it, and those that have been asked have said no (viz. Switzerland, several times! Totally contrary to what the politicians want). ....IAM... You must be havin' a larf....the steering-wheel-feeders-society would probably welcome banning modified cars - comes back to the public perception problem again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Agreed, but it's necessary occasionally! There is real and lasting resentment accross the EU as no electorate has ever signed up for it, and those that have been asked have said no (viz. Switzerland, several times! Totally contrary to what the politicians want). And Norway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Whilst hunting around to see what other forums have to say on the topic I found this http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/showthread.php?t=56433 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Right, have emailed Honest John asking if I have to remove the tdi from my 109, and also the hands free kit. Have also asked if I get compensation! G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Response from MP (who is now a junior minister) on House of Commons note paper! He's outlined concerns to Patrick McLoughlin, SecState Transport. Response from Honest John: "A lot of people have been making a lot of fuss about this, but it hasn't actually happened and is unlikely to. HJ" So, the message is being delivered to the PTB. Whether they listen and act is another thing. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
q-rover Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I think those that are saying vehicle modification wont be affected are missing the point. Norway already has similar laws and regulations in place. And yes it is possibl to modify your vehicle, BUT it is such a beuraucratic nightmarre to get mods approved, that it may as well be illegal. And without approval (ie written on the vehicle reg docs) you can get pulled in roadside checks, it won't (shouldn't) pass an MOT, insurance invalid if the mod is a direct cause or contributor to the accident, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Right, have emailed Honest John asking if I have to remove the tdi from my 109, and also the hands free kit. Have also asked if I get compensation! G. Why on earth would you have to remove your hands free kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Because its an aftermarket hands free kit, not endorsed by the manufacturer an not fitted at the time of manufacture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Because its an aftermarket hands free kit, not endorsed by the manufacturer an not fitted at the time of manufacture. Presumably if the above applies, then it would go as far as changing the stereo back?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 It does seem to go that far.....it depends really how you read it, and just how deep in to it they plan to go....I can't honestly see that being the case...leastways I hope not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Presumably if the above applies, then it would go as far as changing the stereo back?! This is EXACTLY what could be implemented. It's the sort of tosspottery that some petifogging bureaucrat can inact, and some other begrudging jobsworth would enforce. So, please, if you value your modifications, kick up a fuss, write, email phone your local politico - your journos - facebook all the people you know with modifications. Post on forums. The bigger stink, the better the chance of sinking this thing. G. PS - probably already been posted but I used this: http://www.writetothem.com/ It's dead easy. I have received a 3 out of 4 response rate - which is quite good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Because its an aftermarket hands free kit, not endorsed by the manufacturer an not fitted at the time of manufacture. Oh come on, that's just baseless fearmongering and you know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I have a good friend who is an Assistant Editor on the Telegraph and one time LR owner. He has explained the ramifications of this to their motoring desk who will look into it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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