Future of offroading in the UK

[gav-]

When I was younger I first attended  various trialling and comp safari events when there were all types of vehicles attending, I remember Suzukis and twin steer triallers all competing. Events seemed to occur regularly and always well attended. 

When i attend events now they all seem to be for high end competitive vehicles mostly brought rather than home built, and pay and play days seem to be beaten up  discoverys etc. 

I always intended to build my own vehicle but the more stuff I attend and see on the net, I struggle to think that whatever I build won't be competitive, which makes me wonder what will off-roading be like in 5 years? 

Will it just be 8 or so high end events a year with awdc or similar and small scale clubs being poorly attended and therefore land being overused and consequently not very challenging? 

Sorry for the open subject but trying to work a plan for the future! 

 

 

 

[Bowie69]

Tis a good question, ages since I've been to an event, so be good to hear what's going on.

 

[Dave W]

I think you need to attend different events...

It's certainly the case that there has been a move towards specialised vehicles in some areas and within some clubs but there are still a lot of events out there being run just as you describe with a mix of vehicle marques and a mix of vehicle modifications, many of them carried out by the owners. You just need to get out there and dig out your local clubs, not the local branches of national clubs. The MSA issue more permits for cross country (off road) competitions than for any other form of motorsport in the UK, there are lots of different competitions across the country on every weekend. Some areas are better than others though, around here there are a selection of clubs, each offering different levels and styles of events.

You need to decide what it is you actually want to do and get out there and do it. There are many branches to the sport and some are more accessible than others, being competitive isn't just down to the vehicle unless you're looking at high speed events where budget is king and that's a battle you'll never win unless you find an event organiser that keeps a lid on it. I prefer trials simply because it's the driver that plays the biggest role in being competitive and it is easily accessible at any level.

Looking into a crystal ball somewhat... I actually think that the sport is moving back to "grass roots". Both in challenge and comp. safari we suffered a lot from people with huge budgets having vehicles built for them and then persuading UK event organisers that they should adapt their events to make it challenging for the more specialist vehicles. This resulted in a loss of accessible, entry level motor sport events of those types as the organisers seemed to want to compete with each other to see who could put on the most "extreme" event, which basically meant which event was most likely to leave you rebuilding your vehicle after every event.

Once all the events had ramped themselves up to cater for the extreme vehicles those competitors got bored anyway and headed off to European events or USA influenced events. This left a big hole because the UK events no longer had anyone to take their place, because they'd cut off the grass roots competitors, so after much bitching about "no competitors" many of them ground to a halt. This has happened in both challenge and comp. safari, it happened in comp. safari first where you used to have Hill Rallies with 100s of entries ranging from custom built buggies to relatively standard vehicles with a roll cage thrown on. Hill Rallies and comps are just starting to recover from the mass exodus that left them with no entries, challenge is still in the very early stages of recovery, pardon the pun !  

[Chicken Drumstick]

Lots still happening with the ALRC. National rally each year that normally draws a fully booked 130 or so entrants for both the RTV and CCV trials. 

Clubs all across country, most of which run trials events each month. Plus the Majors, Mendips and Baskerville weekend events throughout the year. 

You want to be competitive, try a standard 90. Loads are entered and it'll be all about the driver. If you want to build something, 80" V8 Series 1 coilers are the mainstay of CCV events. 

[honitonhobbit]

I'd agree with Dave. Local clubs in our area are strong. Lots of RTV, CCV, Terra-Tagging et al. Most of it isn't in LR products though. Series stuff has got too expensive to bounce off the geography. Not enough old Disco's anymore. Early 90's etc are two valuable. So it's mostly Suzuki's Mitsi Pajaero's. The local Land Rover clubs are still two of the most competitive in the country - in both trials and Comp Safari. Yup - it's still strong

Greenlaning is about as good as it has been in the last 10 years. Miss-use is down. Councils are still skint and carp; but Glass has done good hard work to open up an excellent (but tough) network

What we are lacking is P&P. There is a massive shortage of P&P down here; 4 in the whole West-country - of which 2 are on the verge of going bust

There's a big rise in high level escorted laning trips - lots of money, but some are worth it - especially if you are a novice

[daveturnbull]

What competitive clubs have you got in zummerzet then HH? SCOR have moved operations over to Kent, and EDORC seem to have all but disappeared.

[Happyoldgit]

Surely this should be titled competitive and club offroading?

[honitonhobbit]

EDORC are still about - just not as much.

Norf Devon LRC (if you can get hold of them)

Somerset and Wilts Trial (a lot)

Devon and Cornwall - bunch of nutters, they'd race snails if there was nothing else

Brissle and West

South West Terra-Tagging (bit Redneck, but a laugh)

Challenge Sarfwest

Dorset LRC - trials

Some other Redneck boys in Vitara's and Bobtailed Disco's

 

 

 

[ejparrott]

Have to admit I've been turned off the scene for pretty much the same reasons.  I stopped P&P a few years ago, mostly due to idiots with £300 wrecks that shoudn't have been out and about, and in some cases drinking and smoking.  It was getting to the point where it was wrecks or riches, and it's made me wonder about my own project 109.  I had intended for it to be a well catered for but not a money no object offroader.  Now I'm less inclined to go offroading and more inclined to go laning, and I'll maybe just build it as a sorted road car now.

[Bowie69]

The drinking and smoking thing was what put me off Dundry off road... That and no one seemed to have a care for safety at all.

[miketomcat]

It's funny we (shirelrc) have been criticised in the past for being heavy on rules and have suffered with bad turn outs because of this. But our P&P days have always been aimed at responsible off roaders in road legal motors who want to play as hard or soft as they want. 

Mike

[Bowie69]

Fancy moving down here

[Disco-Ron]

Dorset Lrc that I trial with has noticed a definite swing in the last couple of years. .. first up a general drop in numbers.... and this yr specifically a turn towards d1s...... you can be up and running for under a grand if you're clever where as anything 90 will no cost at least four times that.....

We still get Muppets turning up for our p&p days though.... always will i think....

[gav-]

Thank you for the long replies with this, it might be a factor that I am in the east of the country that there aren't many events. 

When I was growing up I was always impressed with the varied engineering that was put into trucks and that generally meant that thousands weren't spent. 

Like others on here I am struggling to decide on which direction to build my next vehicle ! 

[ejparrott]

When I got my 109 she was always going to be the 'family' car, having the extra seats, so we could semi-retire our 88, which we try to keep externally original and in good nick.  My 109 was however going to be a very well sorted truck, engineered to do pretty much anything, rather than just buying a load of bling and throwing it on, capable of taking on pretty much anything I could throw at it, yet still a leafer - I won't have a coiler.  Nowaday's though, she's more likely to be a road car again.  I'll fit some HD cills, she'll probably still have a winch because I can use that for other stuff I do anyway, but I doub't I'll both with a cage now, or a rear winch, or most of the other things I was going to do.

[Happyoldgit]

On 17/11/2016 at 10:37 PM, gav- said:

Thank you for the long replies with this, it might be a factor that I am in the east of the country that there aren't many events. 

When I was growing up I was always impressed with the varied engineering that was put into trucks and that generally meant that thousands weren't spent. 

Like others on here I am struggling to decide on which direction to build my next vehicle ! 

 

What about the things the SLROC & Breckland clubs lay on. The Anglian Rover Owners Club have been around for yonks, I used to attend their events way back in the '70's & '80's, then there's the Beds, Herts & Cambs Land Rover Club. There appears to be stuff going on around these parts still.

[missingsid]

Thirty years ago AWDC was the best but over the years it has become a Comp Safari club for wanabe rally drivers in farmers fields. The fast growing area is the Winch events and Tough Trucks type stuff.

After years of having wrecks at Driving days the AWDC lost access to military land where it all began, they have just got access back but they are not very interested in Driving days anymore. When they tried to hold one recently they took two years to try to organise it at Slab Common but ended up at a small site instead then complained no one turned up!

Even worse in my eyes was that the organiser had asked for assistants for these events but when I contacted him he dismissed me as I was not in his cliche (I have been competing and marshalling for 20-30 years)!

 

SCOR looks good to me, they still have access to Slab etc. and they use old style AWDC comp motors and off road courses.

AFAIR ALRCs had stopped the registration of any new S1 coiler space frame type vehicles as they are not the mainstay of the target vehicle. I used to be a member but I don't use door tops so I can't compete, go figure!

[Chicken Drumstick]

ALRC has never stopped S1 coilers FFS. Do wish people wouldn't make up such bollox out of thin air. And CCV motors have never needed door tops either.

 

There is also a brand new Q Class in the ALRC which allows pretty much anything, all it needs is Land Rover engine/gearbox/axles and to look like a Land Rover. So even things like tray back Disco's and the like can now enter.

 

Section L

 

L.1.1 Trials
Class Q. A vehicle manufactured from Land Rover parts in accordance with MSA Regulations. Vehicles must retain Land Rover axles, engines and drivetrain. Vehicles must retain the appearance of a Land Rover.

 

L.1.3 Competitive Safari
Class Q. A vehicle manufactured from Land Rover parts in accordance with MSA Regulations. Vehicles must retain Land Rover axles, engines and drivetrain. Vehicles must retain the appearance of a Land Rover. 

 

 

 

120-130 CCV motors is there norm for the National

 

And 120-140 for the RTV too

 

And a Comp Safari and Team Recovery.

[Daan]

Does the q class have any rules for diff locks and tyre size?

 

Daan

[Dave W]

Not sure about the relevance of a post about an ALRC regulation unless you're suggesting that the future of UK off roading means the ALRC responding to a 25+ year old problem with their regs and then missing the mark completely ?

if "Class Q" is the best they can come up with then it's a real disappointment but not exactly unexpected TBH. Not quite sure how that regulation/class allows anything to compete given that Land Rover don't manufacture MSA or even ALRC roll cages, nor do they make tray backs as far as i am aware. Either it's a badly worded regulation or they've basically excluded every vehicle more than a couple of years old.

"A vehicle manufactured from Land Rover parts in accordance with MSA Regulations."

Good luck trying to comply with that one...

So, is class Q really the future of UK off roading ? I don't think so, no.

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 19/11/2016 at 7:35 PM, Daan said:

Does the q class have any rules for diff locks and tyre size?

 

Daan

Nope, so pretty much a free reign.

 

The only restrictions are, must be a Land Rover engine, gearbox, axles. And must look (subjective) like a Land Rover. In principle this means that something as simple as a D90 with dislocation cones is now more than welcome. While at the other end of the spectrum it means bobbed Disco/RR's, pickups, tray backs and many others could all be welcome too.

Tyres pretty much anything and any size. No restriction on lockers of any kind, so long as they are Rover axles.

 

So unless you are running portals or something like a Chevy V8/Merc diesel, then chances are you'll be welcome.

The MSA reference is just for safety, i.e. You can't expect to turn up in a stock Td5 90 with no rollcage and compete in a Comp Safari. But an MSA tagged cage/log booked vehicle will be sufficient.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Chicken Drumstick

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 19/11/2016 at 8:36 PM, Dave W said:

Not sure about the relevance of a post about an ALRC regulation unless you're suggesting that the future of UK off roading means the ALRC responding to a 25+ year old problem with their regs and then missing the mark completely ?

if "Class Q" is the best they can come up with then it's a real disappointment but not exactly unexpected TBH. Not quite sure how that regulation/class allows anything to compete given that Land Rover don't manufacture MSA or even ALRC roll cages, nor do they make tray backs as far as i am aware. Either it's a badly worded regulation or they've basically excluded every vehicle more than a couple of years old.

"A vehicle manufactured from Land Rover parts in accordance with MSA Regulations."

Good luck trying to comply with that one...

So, is class Q really the future of UK off roading ? I don't think so, no.

Your reply just proves some people are difficult for no other reason than wanting to be difficult. Either that or you completely misread it.

[Disco-Ron]

I believe the qclass is still in discussion. ...

It'll make running trials verydifficult if we end up getting vehicles on 40inch tyres at the same event as a series on 205s....

[honitonhobbit]

I still reckon RTV is the highest form of off road motorsport. It's not about the vehicle. it's about the driver

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

42 minutes ago, Disco-Ron said:

I believe the qclass is still in discussion. ...

It'll make running trials verydifficult if we end up getting vehicles on 40inch tyres at the same event as a series on 205s....

Nope, not in discussion. Voted on and accepted by the ALRC clubs recently (I was at the meeting at Gaydon). Officially it's not active until January, but some clubs are already allowing Q class vehicles to compete. It will also be in the new 2017 ALRC Green book (a bit like the MSA blue book).

 

As for 40 inch tyres. I suspect that is a rarity, not the norm. And even beefed up Land Rover axles aren't really going to be turning that size of tyre.

 

And lets not forget, Forward Controls are currently allowed 37" tyres anyhow. While they might not be the most common trials vehicle. There are a number used actively across the country for such things. So 'big tyres' is not actually anything new. The only difference is allowing them on other vehicles.

 

But anyone who trials knows, that sometimes a large lifted vehicle is not the way to go anyhow. As you won't get the steering lock.