Ok.... Axle disc brake, hub conversion

[sighnbox]

Right don't her from me for ages then loads in one week ok this dam  wheel problem I have

Right Tornado's because load ratting.....DEFF not keen on wheel spacers now after seeing what happened to Dangerous Doug s POOR land rover (imagine that at 80-90 mph) see posting on wheel spacers for a pic

110  1990 Drum brakes behind

OK what is involved work wise and parts on making my front and back axles take a post 1994 wheel with caps.....as in converting the hubs so the wheel fits, discs behind etc etc ......I'm praying I don't need to change the axles them self s just some of the hub gubbins  ....fingers crossed

and from that any problems people may have encountered ????

Thanks guys ......(I will get this sorted one way or another

Edited August 14, 2017 by sighnbox

[western]

alloys will only fully fit compete with centre caps to axles with the thin drive members as on 300Tdi or later, 

[sighnbox]

Hay thanks Ralph ......

Now Ralph as you know from your fantastic help and saving me many many a time from MAJOR land rover depression and smashing it to BITS.....

I can pull the thing apart and put it back together but I've no great knowledge …..Its a case of learn as I go (which owning a LR I've done quite a bit off lol)

 

So this may sound daft question to you but bear in mind the above lol...Now I'm not fussed about disc brakes I just want to get the wheels on safely and a proper fit so.......

So is that a whole axle change then OR can I just change the haft shaft drive member ??

From RUC105200 (which is listed as 24 spline and fits a 1990 TD)

To a FTC859R which is listed as Defender 300tdi Hub drive Flange ?????????

No I've a horrid felling your going to tell me yes there both 24 spline but different diameter shafts as it couldn't poss be that simple as its a LAND ROVER

 

Been cheering me self up from land rover dull drums by stripping down and re spraying all me tow hitch all afternoon LOL

 

[western]

the drive shafts are same diameter but longer on drum braked rear axles, as far as I'm aware, the depth of the drive member is different as are the hubs & stub axles on 300tdi or later, the hub bearings are closer together, 

drive member difference can be seen in this thread https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/59339-axlehubs-weirdness/ 1st photo is the thick drive member which we both have, 2nd photo is the later thin version as fitted to 300tdi onwards, 

copied from the linked post above 

2 parts numbers for 90/110 hub driving members in all my parts info

FTC859 now superseded buy RUC105200 [300tdi on]

FRC5806 everything inc 200tdi vehicles

also the rubber hub caps are different to, ours are deeper, 300tdi onwards shorter, both in the photo's above.

 

 

 

[neil110]

The change from drums to discs on the back end of a 110, which will also facilitate the fitting of alloy wheels, involves replacing the stub axle, the hub, the half shaft (it is marginally shorter) and the drive member. It also requires fitting a bracket to the axle (to carry the caliper) calipers and the discs themselves.

My front axle is a bit of a bar steward creation. It has a 300 era axle case (bigger radius arm bushes) fitted with the earlier hubs, stubs and deep drive members. Inside the stub axle there is a bronze bush, whilst on the later stub there is a needle roller. Gosh it has been a long time since I did this, I seem to recall that the CV joints are not inter changeable between the 2 axles because of the differing number of splines on the  half shafts. The earlier CV joints are stronger than the later variety. The early axles had a 10 spline differential whilst the later had a 24 spine dif.

At one stage I had 300 era drive members on the back of my truck and I am sure I ran them with the longer half shafts from the drum brake axle, but this was nearly 20 years ago

Edited August 14, 2017 by neil110

[sighnbox]

Are I knew I should have brought a 300tdi .............ARRRRRRR..........I think its SERIOUS BEER o clock time before I slip in to even deeper Land Rover depression lol ......

[Retroanaconda]

Rear would be fairly simple, you might get away with just swapping the drive members to the narrow type. At worst you'd need to convert to discs, which would be beneficial anyway.

Front more complicated, because the CVs are different lengths you'd need to replace the hubs, stub axles and CVs.

[oneandtwo]

Regarding the front, just buy a complete disco 300tdi front axle and radius arms and swap them over. Disco axle will be fifty quid or so, radius arms you can't give away!

[Snagger]

SIgn, you could retain your existing axle cases, but you'd have to swap loads - the rear axle (assuming Salisbury) would need the hubs, flanges, stub axles and the whole brake assembly from a disc braked Salisbury axle (they all had the thin flanges).  The front axle would need everything except the swivel housings replaced, including the diff as you'd be going from 10 to 24 spline shafts.  Far easier to swap the axles.

I am no fan of spacers, but for what you want to do, good quality spacers would seem to be the easy answer.  Like any other part, you can get good and bad quality.  They do increase loads on wheel bearings, stub axles and swivels, and also on the steering components.  There is no way to escape that.  But, few people have dramatic failures, and those who do suffer them because of separate issues that would likely cause failure on a vehicle without spacers if they got a harsh thump to a wheel.

[Bowie69]

Fitted with studlock you should see no problems with them coming undone... If you really wanted you could probably work out a way to lock wire them as well?

 

[Snagger]

There is the option of what I did on my rear axle, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it if your shafts are in good order.

I had the centre knaves of some old brake drums separated from the bevelled section on a lathe to use as 1/4" spacers so that the inside of the wheel centres would clear the drive flanges.  That also brought the inside of the wheel centre cap a little proud of level with the end of the drive flange nose (thick flange).  It didn't leave enough space for the plastic cone or even the pend of the shaft and its circlip.  But, my shafts and drive flanges were a bit worn out and had a lot of play.  I had previously read about how they often get welded up in Africa with good results, so I had my local engineering shop (Hogarth, makers of Patriot roof racks) do it.  They machined a Vee on the exterior spline interface to give good penetration and also cross drilled and pinned the shaft and flange at the groove where the plastic cap grips the flange.  To seal the assembly after oil appeared through the paint (porous weld, not cracked), I refit the cones, cut them about 1mm longer than the flange nose, and filled the "crater" with PU adhesive.  So far, it has been fine.  It is obviously critical that the flange is perpendicular to the shaft - Hogarth spun them up in a cnc lathe to face the flange to be sure.

Now, with the 1/4" of wheel stud lost to the spacers, I wasn't confident to use the standard studs, so I fit Wolf studs which are 1/2" longer.  I bough Gen Parts because I didn't trust the Britpart alternative, and they cost something like 12GBP each.  Spendy.  I also had to buy a tap to deepen the threads inside the wheel nuts.  Whether any of that was really necessary is debatable, but I wasn't going to chance it. 

I don't know if you could do the same on the front axle, as the CV joint needs to be correctly positioned inside the stub axle - the rear shafts can float more because you don't have to worry about the CV joint being centred in line with swivel pins.  I have a 200Tdi Discovery front axle with the dome and integrated stub shaft to the CV joint.  You could fit those, perhaps.

[Snagger]

Another option is to have a set of four HD flanges, or just their outer hexagonal covers, chrome plated to match the alloy wheel nuts and make them a feature of the wheel.  You could fit a black neoprene membrane to seal up the gap btween the circular hole of the wheel and the hexagonal edge of the end cap.  hat was my backup plan.

[sighnbox]

Loads options and brilliant advise guys .....I really have gone well off the spacers idea and yes 90% of the time sure there ok BUT thundering down the road at 90 mph oppsss I mean 70 mph of course I would NOW all ways have in the back of my mind is my wheel going to come off .....even if it wasn't

Great minds think alike Snagger I was considering the HD flange thing if I went bowler wheels and getting them powder coated to match the wheels .....Ideally I don't want to loose my current axle cases as had them shot blasted and all me V frame back of hubs etc sprayed semi gloss Ral black .....Cross member, steering rods, Radius and trailing arms, brake callipers were  all painted blue to match the Terrafirma shocks tops.......so really last thing I want to be doing is changing whole axles after what I've done Id rather bite the bullet and buy some bowler wheels......BUT if can change the internals to me personally a much better option.....

 

 

 

 

[Snagger]

Looks a bit Britpart under there! 

[sighnbox]

LOl areeeeeeeeee don't say that lol ......I was going for the classic Mayfair cigarette box colours silver and blue (not that I smoke) ......Not changing it now lol

[Maverik]

Front axle - I've just swapped the axles ends and diff from a 97 Disco front axle onto a 91 Defender front axle. i.e. keeping the case.

I was lucky enough to have a re built disco axle to hand so we just separated the balls off the original case and bolted them up to the old caseing, no problems - heavy work but quite doable.

The only thing we found was that the 97 diff flange was thicker at the sides, i.e. the old casing has shorter studs installed, so I just tickled the diff flange down so we could get some threads exposed to get some nuts on.

[Mo Murphy]

Mav, the diff studs will just knock out with a hammer if you put a nut on first and then refit the long ones from the old casing with a distance piece and a nut to draw them through.

HTH

Mo

[landroversforever]

What Mo said. They easily knock out and new ones drawn in with a stack of washers and a nut.

[sighnbox]

Snagger .......just reading back through all this as I consider my options ...and you say

"Another option is to have a set of four HD flanges, or just their outer hexagonal covers, chrome plated to match the alloy wheel nuts and make them a feature of the wheel.  You could fit a black neoprene membrane to seal up the gap between the circular hole of the wheel and the hexagonal edge of the end cap.  hat was my backup plan."

So I take it if I fit four HD flanges the wheels will/should fit the hubs properly but the hexagonal HD flange nut will poke through the centre hole stopping the caps.......??????

If so think thats the way I will go and would be happy with that as you say have the hex nuts powder coated or chrome plated and would look ok and save LOADS messing about with her and certainly lot cheaper than Bowler wheels

[Snagger]

Correct.  But it's worth borrowing one of the hex caps to make sure it fits the hole in the wheel centre first!  It was an idea that I never fully investigated as I only had to mod the rear axle, and the combination of the 1/4" spacer and welded shafts did the trick.

You wouldn't lose any front axle strength of you used the RRC/Discovery 200Tdi drive flanges and stub shafts on the front axle, if the CV joint is compatible - I don't know if 200Tdi Defenders had CVs with an integrated outer shaft or used the same CV as the RRC/Disco.

[sighnbox]

Yes been to JSF this morning and tried a HD drive member in a boost wheel and no way not even close ...

So narrowing it down now to

Bowler wheels

change the axle inners

Or I've been offered a set of 300 tdi Defender axles .....(quoted £150 to shot blast and spray them)

Now would 300 tdi DEFENDER axles be a straight swap over ??? any thing else that needs changing from my current landy or to be done ??

[Snagger]

The only thing that might get in the way of a straight swap may be the brakes.  You probably have single hose front calipers (twin hose being a RRC and Discovery trait, I think),  and I think all 300s do, so that deals with the front end.  Going from drums to discs on the back could mean that you need to replace the brake master cylinder, depending on the type presently fitted - discs use smaller volume at higher pressure, but I suspect that since the current master is for front discs, it'll manage.  Worth having tested on the brake dyno at an MoT station on completion (they can write out a letter for your insurers for the mod too, to keep them happy and prevent any liability falling on you).

[western]

Defender has single hose calipers up to & including Td5, not sure what the Tdci models have.

 

converted my rear drum to disc & kept the original master cylinder/servo not had any brake problems, passes MOT brake road test fine. 

 

 

[Snagger]

Yeah, I think the two hose calipers were non-ABS RRC and Discovery only, until the 300Tdi where everything was single line.

[sighnbox]

Are thats one good bit of news there I WILL get this sorted one way or another and thanks to every ones FANTASTIC help/advice