Disco 2 or Disco 3 ..... Discuss!

[ThreeSheds]

Got up to maybe £12k to spend, want another Disco (started chasing rust on the current TD5), so the options are a really good TD5 or a not quite so good TDV6.

I am not in a hurry and will be looking for less than 80,000 on the clock.

I am interested in ALL opinions, even trivial ones like 'I don't like the shape', but technical reasons would be nice.

 

Cheers

Roger

p.s. I don't like rust... I really don't like rust!

[muddy]

Re chassis yours, easy job with a 2 post lift and you have enough in the budget to buy one. 

 

sills are nice to repair with the body off.

[dave88sw]

I'd echo Muddy, put a new chassis under yours.

Have you driven a Discovery 3? I personally hate driving them, they go well but the handling is awful, feels like your driving a double decker with soggy suspension.  I also hate the interior, the seats give me arse ache in 5 minutes, they're very typical of Ford; rock hard and no shape.  Mine isn't a popular opinion, most seem to like them but it would be worth trying one out before you search for one.

You also need deep pockets for repairs to a Discovery 3, remember they were a very expensive car when new and although the purchase price has dropped, you're still paying expensive car maintenance costs.  You will NEED to be friendly with someone who has a Land Rover friendly diagnostic set up.

[ThreeSheds]

9 hours ago, muddy said:

Re chassis yours, easy job with a 2 post lift and you have enough in the budget to buy one. 

 

sills are nice to repair with the body off.

Good point...

[ThreeSheds]

I am liking the way this is going - re-chassis and refurb all the iffy bits like ACE and air suspension (which I like), but it's a lot of wok for an old man with a full time job... Maybe I could get somebody else to do it... <<musing>>

[reb78]

I've got both (and a 110! - a glutton for punishment)

The D3 is a bit scary to start with, but once underneath it, its all just usual car parts, just a little more complicated in some areas than its predecessor. We paid just over £7k for a 2007 D3 with 68,000 miles on the clock and an extensive service history. So, with your budget, you could buy a D3 to enjoy whilst you are rebuilding the D2...!

I find the D3 a good ride, not wallowy and i like the air on all four corners vs back end on the D2. It handles well so it seems like i differ to Dave above in my opinion there. The TDV6 is a nice engine, plenty of power, but so is a TD5 with a remap.

Silly thing is, out of all three land rovers, I always find myself picking up the keys to the 110! There's something more satisfying about driving it compared to the other two!

[Ooops]

+1 for what reb78 said

I've never tried a TD5 but I had a 110 and a 300 tdi D1 and particularly loved the D1.
The only electronics it had were the windows, it was unstoppable.
I had a D2 V8 and absolutely loathed it. So much so that if the if the only LR choice was a D2 I'd be looking at another make
However the D3 is an awesome vehicle.

It'll go any where the 110 or D2 will go, carries a heap of gear and super comfy 
Really, the ride is excellent, it you're in one that's wallowing there's some thing wrong with it.

However, like all old motors it'll need work to make sure its reliable.
So to be affordable IMHO you need to be able to do the work your self and budget accordingly for it in your purchase price.
As reb78 said, it all sounds and looks a bit scary at first but once you get into its very straight forward

If its been looked after and you keep the maintenance up you'll develop a perma grin every time you sit behind the wheel.
If you buy a poorly maintained one be prepared to go through and carry out preemptive maintenance on every major system.
In fact that's what you should regardless of its condition if for nothing more that peace of mind.
If you can't do the work yourself that might hurt your pocket a fair bit 

HTH

 

[ThreeSheds]

2 hours ago, Magnet6x6 said:

+1 for what reb78 said
If its been looked after and you keep the maintenance up you'll develop a perma grin every time you sit behind the wheel.

 

Ooohhhh... Now I am swinging the other way!!! I really do like the thought of the D£ (sorry typo, I meant D3)

[garrycol]

I have had the RRS version of the D3 for 8 years and is the most reliable car I have owned - drives great, handles great and is easy, simple and cheap to service but I do it all my self and only contract other things that I am too lazy to do.

The TD5 is great but is from an earlier generation.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, garrycol said:

I have had the RRS version of the D3 for 8 years and is the most reliable car I have owned - drives great, handles great and is easy, simple and cheap to service but I do it all my self and only contract other things that I am too lazy to do.

The TD5 is great but is from an earlier generation.

 

Not knocking you for doing your own service work. But if a turbo charged DOHC V6 diesel in an air sprung independent suspension luxuary 4x4 vehicle with a lifting body and double chassis is simple to service. What in your opinion would be a complex Vehcile to service yourself???

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, Magnet6x6 said:

+1 for what reb78 said

I've never tried a TD5 but I had a 110 and a 300 tdi D1 and particularly loved the D1.
The only electronics it had were the windows, it was unstoppable.
I had a D2 V8 and absolutely loathed it. So much so that if the if the only LR choice was a D2 I'd be looking at another make
However the D3 is an awesome vehicle.

It'll go any where the 110 or D2 will go, carries a heap of gear and super comfy 
Really, the ride is excellent, it you're in one that's wallowing there's some thing wrong with it.

However, like all old motors it'll need work to make sure its reliable.
So to be affordable IMHO you need to be able to do the work your self and budget accordingly for it in your purchase price.
As reb78 said, it all sounds and looks a bit scary at first but once you get into its very straight forward

If its been looked after and you keep the maintenance up you'll develop a perma grin every time you sit behind the wheel.
If you buy a poorly maintained one be prepared to go through and carry out preemptive maintenance on every major system.
In fact that's what you should regardless of its condition if for nothing more that peace of mind.
If you can't do the work yourself that might hurt your pocket a fair bit 

HTH

 

Curious, how can you like a D1 and not a D2? In concept and execution they aren’t really hugely different. The D2 is just better on the road. 

And to that extent. A D3 does handle fine. But lacks ACE. And does indeed feel rather wallowy compared to a D2 with working ACE. 

[reb78]

49 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not knocking you for doing your own service work. But if a turbo charged DOHC V6 diesel in an air sprung independent suspension luxuary 4x4 vehicle with a lifting body and double chassis is simple to service. What in your opinion would be a complex Vehcile to service yourself???

Its got all the same bits - drain plugs, filters, etc etc as my 200tdi, so simple servicing isn't that bad. The plastic engine covers on modern engines seem to scare people off.... Bearings seem similar to the D2 setup, brakes are simple enough - arguably easier than than my old 110 to change a caliper. Air suspension - the D2 on air can be just as troublesome, but its a compressor, height sensors and air bags. No ACE is probably a bonus! The electrics are probably more of a nightmare but I wouldn't class them as servicing.

[joe1]

Ok I'll put in a few words for the D2:

To me there is no question that that D2 is a more refined version of D1, but this in the end depends on what you to use it for (ticks the box for longer journeys). D2 is a simple good road going vehicle and if the well known failure points are addressed would be one to keep:

- Chassis (mid to rear section) has got to be good - so no underseal/bodging and evidence of a charmed life are essential (and even then you will oil it twice a year) 

- TD5 cylinder head - it will fail eventually, especially it seems to me if you push it slightly (mine fell down after a 95mph run) - budget for AMC replacement (gulp) £1400. Either that  or treat it carefully!

- the other bits are almost service items - loctite for oil pump bolt / engine loom replacement / ACE repair (or delete if you're inclined).

And values are falling all the time for D2s - one could be bought relatively cheaply ......

[reb78]

One thing i have noticed is the values rising for the older models, so perhaps now is the time to buy/restore a D2 so you catch them as they start to appreciate - i think they will. Get much more modern (like the D3) and catastrophic failures will see the car scrapped (I suspect our D2 will be with us long after the D3 has gone) - I think the D2 is as fixable as some of the older vehicles on your drive.

Having said that, i met someone who has fitted a D4 engine into his D3 the other day - not phased at all by the D3/D4!

Edited September 12, 2018 by reb78

[Hercu]

My 300 TD1 Disco1 is called old Faithful for a reason...It is fixable and reliable....

The D3 is a different cup of tea..Excellent vehicle but so electricaland as advised above "make good friends with someone with a diagnostic reader."..

I mean...it go in limp when a brake light globe does not make good contact...!

I love my D3 when it runs...super strong..good 4 x 4 in the sand ..comfortable ...soft ride...But you did not make a bad statement by typing "D£" 

The D3 really needs a lot of good maintenance ...and parts are fairly expensive....

What I have read on the D2.... it is bullet proof and really runs well ..Excellent 4 x 4 

My D1 is rusting off its chassis..and all the TD5's (D2) I looked at had rust in hidden places...and I bought a D3

Beauty and the beast

[muddy]

I put our D2 on a new chassis, I replaced all the brake lines, bushes that were removed inc chassis/body bushes, suspension turrets all body and suspension bolts a full service and oil pump bolt. Not a full rebuild just a re chassis, the parts were circa 1000 excluding the chassis.

We bought it with 60k on the clock in 2014 a 2000 one lord owner base spec 10p auto 7 seater without sunroofs. 

Its now done about 115k it goes well, sits at 80-90 all day its a bread and butter machine but in that time its had:

New chassis, All brake pipes replaced, new front shocks, springs, balljoints, axle seals one wheel bearing, steering box, intercooler,radiator,oilcooler temp sender,headgasket,gearbox out and split to replace O rings in casing between clutch packs, sills welded, rear bumper light, new ups throuought front prop, one starter repair kit, one full starter, two batterys, rear door latch. and it now needs a front calliper.

Not exactly trouble free motoring but I still love it when it goes🤕

 

We looked at a 4 hoping to avoid the engine issues of a 3 but I couldn't justify the outlay and the thought of having a few thousand in reserve should something disastrous happen. The horror stories of snapped cranks and the cost of replacing the engine is my main turn off even though the newer models are sublime tow cars.

 

the diagnostics is a moot point surely as you could build the cost of a machine into the budget? even a 1k expenditure will recoup itself I would think.

 

To summerise I can't see anything that will replace the D2 and do a much better job at a reasonable cost.

[BogMonster]

If you can find a mint D2 that would win out. The thing is they are getting old now. My D2 V8 was the best car I ever owned, had it for 13 years and loved it to bits. Never really liked the Td5, put a lopsided number of cylinders in an engine and what would you expect really.

I wouldn't take on the liability of a D3, they have lots of hidden extras that will bite future owners if they have not already, like glowplugs that all snap off in the heads and need the heads stripped and sent to a machine shop ££££££££££. Designed to be built, not to be fixed when they get older. D4 is better.

If I could buy a new D2 with a decent modern diesel engine in it that would be my choice of anything available. I couldn't, so I bought a Shogun which still has a lot of the simplicity of the old D2, lacks a bit of character in comparison but drives very well.

[garrycol]

8 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Not knocking you for doing your own service work. But if a turbo charged DOHC V6 diesel in an air sprung independent suspension luxuary 4x4 vehicle with a lifting body and double chassis is simple to service. What in your opinion would be a complex Vehcile to service yourself???

DOHC diesels have been around for years - nothing special about them.  Require minimal day to day servicing - cam belts etc are no harder or easier than any other belt OHC engine.  Brakes - the same as any modern vehicle.  No problem.  Suspension arms are basically the same as any modern IFS vehicle - yes airbags are different but are relatively simple to replace though rarely needed.  The air system itself is just a series of tubes and valve blocks all easy to service if needed - the main issue is the compressor which are rebuildable or easily replaced.  Gearbox, tfr case and diffs are easily maintained but if there is a gearbox or tfr case problem then they are off to the experts.

Sorry if you look at these vehicles in the cold light of day and without the bull - underneath they are not a lot different to other vehicles.  Yes some things are best left to the technicians but most routine maintenance is possible at home.

My car is now 11 years old, is used offroad quite a bit - it still has its original air compressor, all original suspension components, original engine, gearbox, diffs and tfr case, but it does have a new alternator early in the year - took about 1 hour 20 mins to do - outstanding work I will do shortly - complete rear brakes (the fronts done last month and took about 1 1/2 hours) and front lower suspension arms - I will probably get someone to put the suspension arms in as I have arthritic shoulders and probably could not undo the hi torque bolts without hurting myself but you only need to watch Youtube to find out how to do these and many other maintenance work on these cars.

Once you start working on these cars the mystic soon disappears.

 

 

[Ooops]

13 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Curious, how can you like a D1 and not a D2? In concept and execution they aren’t really hugely different. The D2 is just better on the road. 

And to that extent. A D3 does handle fine. But lacks ACE. And does indeed feel rather wallowy compared to a D2 with working ACE. 

CD, no worries, I'm sure we wont agree on this and that's OK
There are many, many, many happy D2 fans out there, unfortunately I'm not one of them

I liked the D1 because of its simplicity, economy, reliability and comfort. I moved to it from a 110 hence the comfort comment.
It did every thing the 110 could do including load carrying but the improvement in comfort was an order of magnitude greater.
I used it in desert, mountain and beach conditions and worked it very hard in extreme conditions.
It was awesome. For me it remains the ultimate bug out vehicle,  remember I said the only electronics on it applied to the electric windows
so the only problems were ever going to be standard electrics & fuel. What's not to love about that?

The D2 was a loaner that I had for a year. It belonged to a mate who doted over the car and worked through every system as a passion.
Like you he's a great fan of the D2 having previously owned the D1 200tdi. He still runs a D2 as his off road vehicle, sadly not the same one.
Whilst I was grateful for the loan and needed it, having watched so many other people have problems with them I was really worried about taking the keys.
And rightly so, it turned out to be the most unreliable vehicle I've driven
In fairness, he never had an issue with it but for me every week it was some thing else.
I'm not going to get into the saga of what went wrong with it but suffice to say I wouldn't take one to any of the places that I listed above unless there was tarmac within 200 meters.

You may want to sit down for this next bit ..... 
For me the D2 was the most over rated LR that I've ever driven. 
It had zero improvements over my D1 300tdi, in fact it didn't do anything better, go any where better, wasn't any more comfortable
What it added was electronics and length. The electronics were a PIA for many people and the additional length was a joke.
In fact in real world useage it was unnoticeable

I view the D2 as the LR project that the designers never finished. It was a development step between D1 & D3 that should never have been released.
IMHO it was only released so that LR could say they had a new model. I see it as the prototype that didn't work properly and that was released before known faults were fixed.

At the end of the day its a marmite car, you love it or you hate it, I hated it and I'll repeat what I said earlier. If the only LR available to me was a D2 I'd move to another manufacturer.

The only exception to this might be a TD5, I've never driven one. Before the D3 I really wanted to try a TD5 but couldn't get my hands on one.
I'd be willing to test one out but it would be with a very jaundiced eye and I wouldn't be prepared to pay big money for one.
 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Magnet6x6
added TD5 comments

[Ooops]

13 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

............ The D2 is just better on the road. 

....... And does indeed feel rather wallowy compared to a D2 with working ACE. 

CD I have to disagree
IMHO, be it on road or be it off road, in no way is the D2 better than the D3 

Hercu ""make good friends with someone with a diagnostic reader.".."
From both the standard owner and the "working on it" perspectives, you have to change your mind set.
A multi meter and a IID tool, BT version preferred, are essential tools that you'd carry in the same way as you carry a jack
Every owner should budget for one and keep it in the car.

I should have said earlier that I have the V8 but other than the engine the other systems are the same as the TDs
Once you see how they're put together the "fear factor" goes away. They are as straightward to work on as any other LR
And there is a truly excellent level of support available on the Internet.
So much so that if the support wasn't as good as it is the fear factor would have prevented me from buying a D3

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Magnet6x6

[Hercu]

1 hour ago, Magnet6x6 said:

CD I have to disagree
IMHO, be it on road or be it off road, in no way is the D2 better than the D3 

Hercu ""make good friends with someone with a diagnostic reader.".."
From both the standard owner and the "working on it" perspectives, you have to change your mind set.
A multi meter and a IID tool, BT version preferred, are essential tools that you'd carry in the same way as you carry a jack
Every owner should budget for one and keep it in the car.

I should have said earlier that I have the V8 but other than the engine the other systems are the same as the TDs
Once you see how they're put together the "fear factor" goes away. They are as straightward to work on as any other LR
And there is a truly excellent level of support available on the Internet.
So much so that if the support wasn't as good as it is the fear factor would have prevented me from buying a D3

 

 

Magnet....

Totally accepted that I need a "Mind Change"

 IID tool is ordered and eagerly awaiting delivery...and enjoy the vehicle for what it is....Excellent and fixable with the right tools

I was/am spoiled by the simplicity and reliability of the 300 TDi Disco 1 with now 400 000 Km on the clock...Whenever stuck next to the road the tools to fix was a normal set of tools and screwdrivers..Either Fan belt..Water hoses or diesel filter could be fixed in a jiff..

Totally new experience to drive in comfort and then the dreadful "Bong" " Special programs off" and limp to the side of the road just to recycle the key and good to go again..

As a 1958 model myself that kind of technology is hard to get under the belt...Opening the Bonnet with that plastic covers covering the whole engine bay is frightening at first... but I need to adapt or Die...Like the Dinosaurs...

Yes..There is excellent support and that is also my reason for buying a D3 TDV 6 as upgrade

[Simon_CSK]

In 2012 I bought an ES only to discover after 3 months that the chassis was worse than Swiss cheese. After my initial attempts to weld it up and discovering that there was no solid metal to weld to I set about a rechassis. I put on a galvanised chassis.

In total it cost me £10k which included the cost of the car new brakes new suspension stripping out the ACE and ultimately the air suspension. Over the last two years it was parked up because of engine issues, a divorce and a new marriage (mad fool that I am) but in the last three months have sorted out the car and am looking forward to driving it again. It has 183k on the clock and I can honestly say I love it. It will get used every day of the week as long as it runs. There will be no depreciation because it is worthless anyway.

In the last month I have spent on it £1500 which included fitting a second hand engine, new clutch, new sound system, and new interior because mine was old tired and shredded by my dog. 

My bench mark was my Freelander 2 which I bought new in 2007. Cost me £35k and got £18k back for it after 3 years. I figure if I run old cars, I have three, and they cost less than £6k a year then I am winning.BTW I do something like 30k miles every year. Occasionally have a breakdown. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, Magnet6x6 said:

CD I have to disagree
IMHO, be it on road or be it off road, in no way is the D2 better than the D3 
 

 

 

 

I said D1 not D3. The D2 is better than a D1 on road. And essentially the same otherwise in terms of what it is. Hence me asking why can you love a D1 and loath a D2. They just aren’t different enough to be polarised for just one. 

As for a D3. Out of the box the traction system makes them very capable off road, as it can genuinely keep all 4 wheel spinning (although without the rear locker, as per most U.K. examples. At the cost of heavy brake wear). And it flexes quite well for independent suspension. But ultimately the vehicle is HUGE and heavy with lots of vulnerable body work. And the independent suspension will make it less stable in most technical off road situations. 

A D2 with centre diff lock and some ATB’s in the axles to aid the older Gen TCS. Will be a more stable (due to live axles) and nimble off road vehicle. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, Magnet6x6 said:

CD, no worries, I'm sure we wont agree on this and that's OK
There are many, many, many happy D2 fans out there, unfortunately I'm not one of them

I liked the D1 because of its simplicity, economy, reliability and comfort. I moved to it from a 110 hence the comfort comment.
It did every thing the 110 could do including load carrying but the improvement in comfort was an order of magnitude greater.
I used it in desert, mountain and beach conditions and worked it very hard in extreme conditions.
It was awesome. For me it remains the ultimate bug out vehicle,  remember I said the only electronics on it applied to the electric windows
so the only problems were ever going to be standard electrics & fuel. What's not to love about that?

The D2 was a loaner that I had for a year. It belonged to a mate who doted over the car and worked through every system as a passion.
Like you he's a great fan of the D2 having previously owned the D1 200tdi. He still runs a D2 as his off road vehicle, sadly not the same one.
Whilst I was grateful for the loan and needed it, having watched so many other people have problems with them I was really worried about taking the keys.
And rightly so, it turned out to be the most unreliable vehicle I've driven
In fairness, he never had an issue with it but for me every week it was some thing else.
I'm not going to get into the saga of what went wrong with it but suffice to say I wouldn't take one to any of the places that I listed above unless there was tarmac within 200 meters.

You may want to sit down for this next bit ..... 
For me the D2 was the most over rated LR that I've ever driven. 
It had zero improvements over my D1 300tdi, in fact it didn't do anything better, go any where better, wasn't any more comfortable
What it added was electronics and length. The electronics were a PIA for many people and the additional length was a joke.
In fact in real world useage it was unnoticeable

I view the D2 as the LR project that the designers never finished. It was a development step between D1 & D3 that should never have been released.
IMHO it was only released so that LR could say they had a new model. I see it as the prototype that didn't work properly and that was released before known faults were fixed.

At the end of the day its a marmite car, you love it or you hate it, I hated it and I'll repeat what I said earlier. If the only LR available to me was a D2 I'd move to another manufacturer.

The only exception to this might be a TD5, I've never driven one. Before the D3 I really wanted to try a TD5 but couldn't get my hands on one.
I'd be willing to test one out but it would be with a very jaundiced eye and I wouldn't be prepared to pay big money for one.
 

 

 

 

 

I don’t see it as a marmite car at all. And while I own 4 Land Rovers at present. None are D2’s. So I’m no manically defending a fanboy position.

I assume you encountered issues largely unrelated to D2’s specifically, but just labelled them as D2 problems?

You talk about electronics. 

And while it’s true most of the Tdi’s are not ECU controlled, the latter 300 auto’s where. And all V8 powered Disco 1’s. They could also be had with alarms, immobiliser, central locking and other things.

 

A D2 uses the same V8 engine, same gearboxes, same transfer box and largely the same axles (just better). Ok, they have more modern electronics in terms of the wiring harness, but so does a D3 which you like.

 

The D2 body has a better design around the windows/window channels and gutter. Reducing wind noise over a D1. And on the hole having better NVH.

 

They optionally have ACE, which is largely a hydro/mechanical system and is superb in what it does. Without it, it performs the same as a D1. The only real electronic addition is ABS, which is standard on all modern cars, including the D3 and traction control. Land Rover did arguably drop the ball by removing the centre diff lock, although it was optionally available on some model years and only requires a linkage kit on early examples. With a centre diff lock the D2 will perform equally to a D1 if the TCS isn’t working, with it working however, it has far superior off road ability.

 

As for length. Again, how can you like a bigger D3, then claim the D2 is too big?? Doesn’t make sense.

 

D1 = 178.7”

D2 = 185.2”

D3 = 190.9”

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Chicken Drumstick

[Ooops]

5 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I said D1 not D3. The D2 is better than a D1 on road. And essentially the same otherwise in terms of what it is. Hence me asking why can you love a D1 and loath a D2. They just aren’t different enough to be polarised for just one. 

As for a D3. Out of the box the traction system makes them very capable off road, as it can genuinely keep all 4 wheel spinning (although without the rear locker, as per most U.K. examples. At the cost of heavy brake wear). And it flexes quite well for independent suspension. But ultimately the vehicle is HUGE and heavy with lots of vulnerable body work. And the independent suspension will make it less stable in most technical off road situations. 

A D2 with centre diff lock and some ATB’s in the axles to aid the older Gen TCS. Will be a more stable (due to live axles) and nimble off road vehicle. 

Humblest apolgies I misread the comment

However as it happens my comments apply equally, apart from the fact that my D1 was slower
The D2 didn't go anywhere or carry anything better than a D1.
But IMHO the D2s that I have experience of where plagued with issues whee as my D1 just got on with it

Bottom line, lets agree to differ