problem after clutch change pedal hard but no travel on slave

[justustwo]

hi all needing all of those knowledgeable ones to give some input please .

Have a lwb series 3 1984  which has been off the road for a few years .Has a Toyota turbo diesel engine in () and was all working well as my daily driver up till 2012 when clutch went and left me off the road.

As far as i remember  one of the damper springs fell out of the clutch plate and jammed.During this time. i then acquired a later Defender  which has been my sole daily driver since.

During the last 3 years or so i took the engine out of the broken down series3 and replaced the clutch and repaired  a few of the leaks on the leaky  Toyota   

Then unfortunately work commitments meant it was left uninstalled from the gearbox inside the house.

around 2 years ago got it back easily  into car and got engine running in car . .

now i get to this point :

The car is starting easily enough but the clutch will not disengage to allow me to put it into gear with engine running.If i attempt to turn engine on with the car in 1st gear it will lurch forward (as expected)

Things i have done so far are :

bled any air out of the system  

test master cylinder by clamping the flexi outlet hose and i get a nice firm pedal.

slave cylinder is not leaking and no further bubbles come out .Im not sure but i think i put new seals in the slave whilst the clutch was being installed??

Have adjusted pedal height to 140mm from floor

by starting the engine  in 1st gear  Tried to jolt the car to see if clutch had rusted to flywheel -dont think it could have done so though as i am in warm dry South Africa and has been  inside

 

 

the biggest concerns and my thinkings behind why it  is not going into gear is: 

 When i put my foot down on the clutch pedal it feel normal for what feels like a third of the normal travel, then it goes solid and feels a mechanical sort of stop and if i were to go further it feels like something would break.

when i look through the inspection plate in the bell housing the clutch arm is pushing the fork against the release bearing  but the the bearing only moves about 5mm this surely is not enough?

Now with the propshafts connected the shaft from the gearbox that this release bearing is on(is that the primary shaft?) does not seem to be  turning either with engine on or off- should I not be seeing this try to turn as i attempt to put in gear or is there an outer covering shaft like a bush which prevents me seeing the primary shaft turning??

About 8 months ago when I did first engine start after installed with replaced clutch i am sure i remember that the handbrake drum was turning round fairly slowly as if it was slightly dragging with engine running   this was before i installed the props.i think i could stop it just by putting my foot against the drum 

I've tried finding the pictures i took when i did replace clutch to see if i can see anything stupid i have done but cant find them .I am 99.99% sure i would not have put clutch drive plate wrong way round.i have done clutch on defender before and all well no problems and i dont consider myself a novice or inept

 

Another thing that crossed my mind is COULD(??) i have accidentally used my later defender 200tdi old slave cylinder( which i then would have resealed ) but it could have had a shorter push rod

sorry for long post but really need to get the old girl running again as going to need it  once this whole lockdown is over 

stay safe and please any suggestions

 

 

 

 

 

[Bowie69]

Sounds to me like you have most thing covered I would go for -time to pull the engine out again I'm afraid, or gearbox, whichever you find easiest.

[justustwo]

Oh no!!not the reply I wanted but part of me if half expecting.it's taken me 8 years to get this far😣I am half expecting lockdown to be finished by the time I have it done.

Any thoughts on how far in general the movement of the release bearing on the clutch diaphragm  should be?

[David Sparkes]

My first move would be to go back one step.
Either disconnect both propshafts from the transfer box (best move) or simply put the transfer box in neutral (Hi-Lo red knobbed lever to the mid position).

I'm starting with the principle that mechanical devices don't like sitting still for a long time; they seize up.
Of particular relevance is the friction plate rusts to the flywheel.

With the transfer box in neutral you can start the engine with the main gearbox in neutral and see if the handbrake drum turns slowly as before, and if it is as easy to stop as you recall.
You can also preselect any gear, then start the engine, and see the results on the handbrake drum.
You can then see (hear) what happens to the engine note when you apply the handbrake.
Ideally, I'd like to see the handbrake stall the engine if 4th gear was preselected, but the handbrake might not be strong enough.

Now with a gear preselected, press the clutch as far as it will go and start the engine, probably the handbrake drum will turn. Now apply the handbrake; this will stress any rust joint between the friction plate and the flywheel; it might let go with a bang.

You may still have to release the gearbox and slide it back an inch or so. This will facilitate operating the clutch release bearing, isolating the problem to the pedal or hydraulics, or the clutch plate itself.

Regards.

 

[steve b]

Do you have any pic's of the new clutch bolted to the FW before installing ? - two things is the centre plate the right way round and is the cover definitely S3 ?

Engine out again I think to check it all

cheers

Steve b 

[justustwo]

sorry for delay in replying .thanks for comments even though not really what i want to hear .I have not got any pics of the clutch being bolted in but had a pic of the old one coming out and also a short video of new clutch showing throw or the clutch fork against the bearing seems very small no?really keeping taking it all out again as my last option.going to take of the slave and see if all right and working .On the video can you hear the mechanical stop sound as the throw of the bearing against the clutch is at its limit what could that be?

Edited April 26, 2020 by justustwo
problem uploading video and image

[steve b]

 I would say centre plate in the wrong way round , you can see the centre boss through the gaps in the fingers ....sorry

 

cheers

Steve b

[Retroanaconda]

Put some grease on the release bearing pivots and the tube it slides on too, it will help smooth operation and longevity.

[Snagger]

That release bearing looks a long way forward and the fork very canted when the pedal is released.  Do you have a small amount of play on the operating rod connecting pedal box trunnion to master cylinder?  I have a suspicion that the master isn’t fully retracting, preventing fluid pressure release and holding the slave extended.  If you are getting continuous drive through the clutch, I’d suspect the driven p,ate is in backwards, as suggested above, which would also explain the noise you questioned.

[justustwo]

hi guys ok update . took slave cylinder off today and there is hardly any resistance on the pushrod when i push it with my hand.Feels correct and is not binding on the shaft.

But as Snagger suggested the fingers on the pressure plate look quite flat but i have also uploaded photos of what the clutch assembly looked like when it was first taken out and they also look quite flat.

The clutch pressure plate was refurbished from a local firm and the clutch friction plate was relined.

I still find it hard to believe that i have put clutch plate in wrong way around , have tried enlarging photos to maximum on  current clutch set up and i cant say for sure that i can see any problem?

A thought just occured as i was writing this is that the pushrod when i push it in by hand, extends to just past the adapter plate/bell housing where the slave is bolted to and it only just touches the fingers.There is a 1mm spacer  between the slave housing and bellhousing face(iyt cant extend further or else the piston would come out of slave bore....could i have swapped the pushrod accidentally with an old discarded one from my 200tdi defender and maybe they are slighlty shorter in length .??

Why i am stalling till last moment taking clutch back out to check orientation is that i dont want to disturb the engine again as just got everything sorted in engine bay and the car is in a very restricted garage and cant be easily moved anywhere..Thinking of sliding gearbox back on temporary thread studding to get access(after taking of gear lever housings?(props already off now) ??

Any further thoughts, suggestions or anything else most welcome please see the latest pics to see if you can see anything of help to me 

thanks all 

 

 

[hurbie]

did you fit the correct release bearing ? it looks like it has to travel to far before it touches the clutch

Edited April 27, 2020 by hurbie

[justustwo]

23 minutes ago, hurbie said:

did you fit the correct release bearing ? it looks like it has to travel to far before it touches the clutch

Good thought.I'm sure I got the old one in a  box so will check on that in morning thanks

[Gazzar]

What gearbox do you have? It's not an LT76, the normal series 3 box. The splines look closer to a LT77, maybe?

[justustwo]

9 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

What gearbox do you have? It's not an LT76, the normal series 3 box. The splines look closer to a LT77, maybe?

 

Thanks for reply no its not a LT77(you say LT76 but think your typo or is that the code for a series 3 box -not sure?)

its a Santana series 3 gearbox .I am in South Africa and its in a series 3 1984 called an R^ which was the South African version of the stage 1 in uk but had a 4 speed beefier gearbox/ tx box from Santana but to all sense and purposes a series 3 box

[Gazzar]

Yes, the LT76 is what the series box was called toward the end of production.

 

 

 

[Snagger]

Certainly different splines form the Rover SIII clutch, which are all as per Gary’s photo.  The pressures plate fingers look very flat, but the whole casing has detail differences from Rover units, so I can’t say whether I think there is a problem there or not.  However, given the nature of the symptoms and confirmation that the hydraulics are ok, then I think the pressure plate or friction plate must be the problem.  Is it possible to source new rather than rebuilt items?

[justustwo]

thanks im getting ready to slide the gearbox back but to do it i need to move a whole lot of stuff from the garage to get enough space to work around so thats my plan today.

yes i would rather buy new but seem to remember when i was looking the local LR guy i use said was certainly diff than any lr stuff so just went refurbished and was desperate for cash and couldnt get any info on where to get a new replacement

[Snagger]

I’m loathe to recommend them, but Britpart bought up most Santana stock.  Could be worth speaking to their head office.

[FridgeFreezer]

There's at least two different lengths of otherwise identical-looking clutch release bearings and getting them mixed up is very easy and can give either no clutch at all or permanently disengaged clutch, could be an easy fix.

Also the all-metal ones are worth it, takes a lot more to melt them

[David Sparkes]

42 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

There's at least two different lengths of otherwise identical-looking clutch release bearings and getting them mixed up is very easy and can give either no clutch at all or permanently disengaged clutch, could be an easy fix. ...

I haven't had time to look the details, but I'm pretty sure the pressure plate can come with a steel ring interface between the spring fingers and the release bearing.
If I've interpreted the pictures correctly, there are pictures of the 'old' pressure plate with no steel ring interface.
If my recollection is correct this might be a cause of a 'wrong' release bearing being supplied.
Stressing the 'not checked' status, perhaps this improved pressure plate would have been used for a 2.5 NA engine, or even a TDi engine?
I will have to leave that open for comment by people with hands on experience.

Regards.

[steve b]

The ring is for S1 , 2 &2a type release .

Do you know if it's a 9" or 9 1/2" clutch ?

cheers

Steve b

[Snagger]

I’ve not seen pressure plates on 2.4s or Tdis with the rectangular apertures every 120 degrees.  I think this is Santana specific.

Looking at the photos of the pressure plate alone and then fitted, the diaphragm fingers look fairly flat there too.  I wonder if John got the culprit - if the new release bearing sleeve is too short, then the release fork and slave cylinder would already be well extended at rest and may not have energy remaining movement to release the clutch.  As I said before, the fork looks a long way forward, where I’d expect it to be with the pedal to the floor.  If the diaphragm is correct, then a long release bearing carrier is needed.

[simonb]

On 4/28/2020 at 5:48 PM, David Sparkes said:

I haven't had time to look the details, but I'm pretty sure the pressure plate can come with a steel ring interface between the spring fingers and the release bearing.
If I've interpreted the pictures correctly, there are pictures of the 'old' pressure plate with no steel ring interface.
If my recollection is correct this might be a cause of a 'wrong' release bearing being supplied.
Stressing the 'not checked' status, perhaps this improved pressure plate would have been used for a 2.5 NA engine, or even a TDi engine?
I will have to leave that open for comment by people with hands on experience.

Regards.

Yes, for a series 2, the cover should look like this:

 

https://www.terraintechparts.com/products/oem-clutch-cover-for-land-rover-series-br-0631g?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjuff75yO6QIVjbh3Ch1kugdxEAQYAyABEgL-W_D_BwE

That's why there is such a big gap between the bearing and the cover.

The series 3 cover does away with that big ring in the centre.

Edited April 29, 2020 by simonb

[justustwo]

Hi all thanks for all the responses and some very good thoughts .Have been trying to sort out garage work space for last 2 days and still trying to finnish it of today before get on with the clutch !! i cant believe how much stuff we obtain being landy drivers or is that just my hording.I have doors windscreen tx boxes springs  before i even get to open the entrance  door fully! Still trying to hunt down my box of used parts with the old release bearing  but as soon as i get it will compare and update here thanks .

[justustwo]

Hi all back again and the clutch saga continues .After 3 full days of tidying the space in the garage to allow me to slip the gearbox back and check the clutch i have finally got the clutch revealed and to my pleasure and pain i discovered that the driven plate WAS correctly installed with the flywheel side stamped and marked and up against the flywheel .I say pleasure as its nice to know i didnt do a stupid mistake BUT i am no nearer a solution so my search and pain continues.

I searched through all my old parts (which i always keep and found 2 old identical  release bearings one must be from my current driving defender  and the other must be from this problem series3 and unfortunately they are  identical in type and size so no solution there and leaving me at a complete loss to what or where  the problem is.

I have .looked and studied  carefully at every picture i have taken and the only difference i can see from the old fully working  clutch setup is the driven plate -the pressure plate i am 99.9% sure is my original that has just been refurbished but the drive plate was refurbished with heavier damper springs.  i can remember the clutch refurbisher guy saying that the old ones were quite small and weak for the current set up so he put 4 heavier duty ones in as opposed to the 6 that were in the original (remember that this was the cause of the clutch giving way( the broken damper springs jammed up the clutch). I cant see how the slightly different drive plate configuration of 4 damper springs compared to the 6 in the original setup but cant see how this would allow the release bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers any earlier ??

Is there any easy  way to test the pressure plate ?

Help any other suggestions please  im getting stumped even for possible solutions even thought that maybe the flywheeel had been skimmed to far down but cant see that as feasible.

its a 9inch driven plate by the way

The video show the driven plate on the shaft and seem to be fully engaged but is it normal to have so much :wobble: on it?:  cant see that that would cause to clutch not to disengage though